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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#201076: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:57:59 PM

By the way, it looks like the Final Boss of Criminal Minds is gonna be this guy, with a whopping body count of... eight.

This show is so disappointing that it actually fails to be over-the-top when it should be.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#201077: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:04:10 PM

Yes to Richard, but yeah...TBH, the dismissal of Omar's potential redeeming features? Not buying it. Just because he's willing to kill countrymen of the nation he wants to save doesn't invalidate his potential good qualities. That's what being an extremist means.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#201078: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:11:50 PM

Honestly [tup] to Omar. The Barkov thing sounds like a textbook recourses issue.

Also, frankly, his "mitigating factors" sound like Garbage.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 8th 2020 at 4:19:30 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#201079: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:17:50 PM

why does it sound like garbage, Kylo?

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#201080: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:28:01 PM

From what I'm hearing he's an Ax-Crazy maniac who kills his own people whilst claiming he's fighting for them. Yes, there are cases of "Killing the few to save the many" but it really Dosent sound like that's how the work plays it.

And Jackie saying that Omar Dosent give a shit about his people.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#201081: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:38:03 PM

[tup] for Liam Foyle.

Leaning towards [tdown] for Omar "The Wolf" Suleiman. Considering that Barkov is also listed as a CM—and a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist at that—it feels like Omar is a bit overshadowed by him. Almost as bad as Barkov, but not quite there. And seeing as how Omar was a freedom fighter opposing Barkov's invasion of Urzikstan to begin with, that muddles things.

Omar sounds like a Well-Intentioned Extremist who evolved into someone not much different from the guy he was trying to stop.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#201082: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:38:42 PM

But does he care for his country? No, killing his own people does not in of itself disqualify that and that's all the evidence the proposal gave us.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#201083: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:50:50 PM

[up] Might be misremembering a bit. I think he does kinda care for his country, but is willing to use his own people to get what he wants. He’s still a dick, so it’s kinda complicated.

My mistake.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Feb 8th 2020 at 6:53:01 AM

It's Spooky Month!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#201085: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:52:56 PM

Yeah as Lighty, Jackie, and I said The Wolf isn't a Well-Intentioned Extremist at all. While he claims that his motives are just, he has murdered numerous and numerous of innocent people, including his own people just to suffice his bloodlust and power trip and his actions are even against the rebels fighting for the country. A true Well-Intentioned Extremist in that game would be Hadir who stole the gas to use against Barkov's men to liberate his country and was willing to destroy gas himself. The Wolf holds no such intentions willing to murder anyone who he claims to stand in his way and is a clear Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist. I mean Barkov stance is also the same as The Wolf in that like the Wolf, Barkov claims to be committing all his atrocities for Russia when its really just a power trip. I think it's the same with The Wolf in that he's claims to be committing all his atrocities for Urzikstan when its just The Wolf going on a power trip willing to kill his own people should they go against him.

Edited by G-Editor on Feb 8th 2020 at 4:55:15 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#201086: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:54:28 PM

Okay. I'm saying no to Omar. Since he really does seem to care about his country legitimately.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#201087: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:55:21 PM

Now that I think about it [tdown] Wolf. Complicated morality, plus hints of being legitimately well-intentioned make him a nay in my case.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Feb 8th 2020 at 6:58:20 AM

It's Spooky Month!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#201088: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:01:38 PM

[tup] Sarah, Cadney, Richard and Foyle

[tdown] Omar

PureGrainAlkaSeltzer The Lord Of Walruses from 1200 Pennsylvania Ave Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
The Lord Of Walruses
#201089: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:12:59 PM

[tup] to Richard and Foyle.

[tdown] to Omar

I have no idea what I am doing
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
TBNY (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#201091: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:41:47 PM

Has The Other from Hell Fest ever be up for discussion as a CM? Aside from being a father who appears to love his daughter, he doesn't seem to have any other redeeming factor, other than his motive of general murder. I feel like he is, but at the same time, he feels like a normal Generic Doomsday Villain, on par for any slasher.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#201092: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:43:44 PM

I brought him up briefly, but...you can't just go "apart from being a father who loves his daughter." Like...that's it. That's the end of the chances of him keeping right there.

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#201093: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:58:59 PM

The fact that Omar is a hypocrite and psycho who kills tons of innocent people does not mean he isn't a Well-Intentioned Extremist. I think people have this idea of "Well-Intentioned Extremist is only for Anti Villains and if someone is too evil they can't qualify as well intentioned anymore" when that is not the case, you can kill thousands of people and still be considered well-intentioned if you're doing it for a noble cause. I used the example of V.V. from Code Geass as an extremely heinous and unsympathetic villain who's responsible for thousands of deaths, but he was still disqualified from Complete Monster because he is still well intentioned and honestly believes that all the deaths are nessacary to create a utopia. This Omar sounds quite similar so I'm a strong [tdown] unless someone can provide solid evidence that he doesn't care about liberating the country.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#201094: Feb 8th 2020 at 8:10:16 PM

Omar's a no and V.V.... I'm surprised how long he had to be debated back in the day given how in addition to the WIE thing, there's the fact he does nothing to mitigate the fact he was horrified at his beloved mother's death alongside Charles as a child.

ryanasaurus0077 Since: Jul, 2009
#201095: Feb 8th 2020 at 8:14:55 PM

Shall I go ahead and create the comprehensive page/section on actors who have played and fought CM's, if we haven't yet?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#201096: Feb 8th 2020 at 8:24:37 PM

Okay since he has enough votes and I won't be here tomorrow due to a doctor's appointment, here's Richard's write up.

  • Every Stolen Breath by Kimberly Gabriel: Richard Stewart is Mayor Henking's chief of staff and the mastermind behind the Swarm, where he as a Death Mob of teens beat a target. A lot of Swarm members are forced to join under threat of blackmail, with many members being scared for life or commiting suicide. When Kellee Morrell refused to cooraprate, Richard framed her father, Bill, as a fall guy and then had him killed. When Steven Finch came to close to the truth, Richard had him killed and his investigation shut down. When Steven's daughter Lia witnesses a Swarm attack, Richard has her stalked for over a month. Richard also frames a Latino gang for the Swarm's crimes. Richard forces Lia to watch her best friend Adam killed, before trying to do the same with her love interest, Ryan.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 8th 2020 at 10:25:18 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201097: Feb 8th 2020 at 8:34:44 PM

[tup]Richard and Foyle

[tdown]Omar.

Good job Bullman.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#201098: Feb 8th 2020 at 8:57:41 PM

Vile, I’m probably biased because I wrote that entry but I have no clue why you’re complaining about it. I think what I wrote is fine.

Its the first and last parts that bug me. The last is just speculation, like "maybe he will do more", which reads to me like that another entry, which we changed last year, about "he possibly return in another episode". And the first part is sentence of "the film amalgamates the characteristics of the manga's first and second chapters' killers." which goes before saying who the monster is. I think maybe we should do it like "This version of the cafe manager amalgamates the characteristics of the manga's first and second chapters' killers."

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#201099: Feb 8th 2020 at 9:05:53 PM

[tup] Sarah, Cadney, Richard and Foyle

So does indirect killing thousands good enough to be a CM? A character I had in mind was a person who intentionally sold superpowers to dangerous individuals for massive profit.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#201100: Feb 8th 2020 at 9:16:32 PM

[up] Sounds no different than the arms trafficker who sells weapons to war-waging terrorists—go ahead.


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