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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#201001: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:51:25 AM

[tup] Jinmen, Costello, Pierrot, Cheshire Cat and Perdo, as well as Sarah

Abstain on Tunnel Keeper

[tdown] on Kamiya (who, while committing gross acts towards his daughter, I personally think seems too genuinely insane to count)

Edited by captainmarkle on Feb 8th 2020 at 1:52:06 PM

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201002: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:52:09 AM

[up][up][up]I said maybe him. Not that it actually is him.

[up][up]Does OVA Amon actually do anything special for demons in this series since them just killing people is generic.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 8th 2020 at 5:52:25 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#201003: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:54:32 AM

Even if it's a different continuity?

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#201004: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:55:42 AM

I'm going to recheck the OVA, as it goes in very different direction than Amon: The Darkside of the Devilman.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201005: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:55:52 AM

Doesn't he still have Jinmen or Ryo to compare to in that same ova.

Edit: [up]Lol. Yeah he's an Anti-Hero in amon and uh the opposite in the ova.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 8th 2020 at 5:56:30 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#201006: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:04:13 AM

I'm kinda surprised Jinmen's the only candidate in the original, but I guess the heinous standard is so jacked.

VVV, you or Lighty gonna look at the Grimoire incarnation?

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#201007: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:09:03 AM

[up]Lighty will take care of him. Jinmen is the only one from original manga, who is heinous enough to count, while lacking in redeeming qualities.

So as promised, here is rechecking of Cadney

What's the work?

Amon: The Darkside of the Devilman is alternative retelling of original Devilman manga. Well it becomes this in second half of its run, first half completely dedicated to Amon's past and his rivalry with Satan. Second half follows Akira, as he regained control of his body from Amon (whom taken him over in the very first chapter), and we follow the events of the original manga, only with more context shown, which explains many things and give us a bad guy, who in this version is the one, who starts out humanity's paranoid craziness and a "witch hunt".

Enter Cadney, whom I propose to expand entry as he commits much more atrocities than his entry implies.

Who is Cadney?

A secretary of Professor Rainuma (who was the one who started the "witch hunt" craze in original manga by revealing his theory about humans with anger transforming into demons), Cadney was secretly one of the people at Ryo's party, where Akira transformed into a Devilman, and unknowingly absorbed one of the fragments of Amon, which separated from the demon as he possessed Akira. Not knowing that, Cadney thought of himself as special, whom demons couldn't possess. Although Cadney was already a sociopath, who killed and raped many innocent people in the past years, as he himself revealed, this event allowed Cadney to cause more damage than he was capable before. Apparently seducing Rainuma, Cadney leads his organization in hunting down many innocent people, in pretense of hunting demons (innocent people, who turned to demons are burned as well). Revealing his theory about humans, who turned into demons through Rainuma, Cadney has captured and created many demons and forces them to fight to the death, with observants, who turn into demons are mercilessly slaughtered. Experimenting on many innocent people (turning them into man made demons), Cadney confronts Devilman and after falling unconscious (due to a shock as he was turning into a demon form), Devilman's friends tried to blow him up, only for him to kill them (they still were able to blow him up, but it was not enough to kill him) and escape. Having his soldiers to kidnap and his employers to torture to the death many innocent people, Miki's parents included, Cadney confronted Devilman a second time (not before killing Rainuma) and revealed that he experimented on himself to give himself an angel form. As his Amon part goes out of control, Cadney horribly mutates, desperately saying that he is not like Devilman and he is superior being and different, as he admits his atrocities. As Akira absorbs him, Cadney later tortures him with Miki's death (who died from mob's attack, as they believed her to be a demon), which resulted in Amon taking control back and destroying Cadney completely.

Heinousness?

Cadney is much weaker than Amon and Satan and doesn't use powers very much, as he believes himself to be completely human. With that in mind, sending the world in to insanity of paranoid "witch hunt", having his soldiers hunt down and kill many innocent humans and demons, horrible experimentations, forcing demons to fight to the death for fun and sheer pettiness of his deeds is much more than enough to push him over the baseline for the series. Hell, about his past murder and rapes, we even see a one panel flashback, giving us enough onscreen evidence of such crimes.

Mitigating Qualities?

None. His final speech, before Akira absorbed him, falls flat at pitying him, due to him committing atrocities simply due to considering himself a superior being, who has right to do anything he wants. He lacks of actual care of humanity and sheer spitefulness and pettiness before his final death mark him as an evil bastard, who just likes power over others.

Conclusion?

I will say Yes.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 8th 2020 at 5:11:34 PM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#201009: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:18:37 AM

[tup] Cadney. Fewer resources, and seems like he was already a bastard.

Edited by ACW on Feb 8th 2020 at 9:33:30 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201011: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:42:57 AM

[tup]cadney

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#201014: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:41:25 AM

Since i was ignored about this thing, i will say again, this entry is a bit awkward:

Complete Monster: The film amalgamates the characteristics of the manga's first and second chapters' killers. Obsessed with beauty, this version of the cafe manager kidnaps women, chopping off and keeping their hands, then leaves the corpses in public places to create his depraved aesthetic. Linked to deaths of four women, the manager nearly kills Yu/Yoru Morino as well. Stopped by Itsuki Kamiyama revealing he holds the manager's journal detailing his entire modus operandi and forced to flee town, he no doubt intends to pursue more victims.

Its from here (film section).

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#201016: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:50:10 AM

The first and last parts is what buggs me about the entry.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201017: Feb 8th 2020 at 8:23:30 AM

Anyone new count in Chilling Adventures of Sabrina''

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#201018: Feb 8th 2020 at 8:47:11 AM

[tup] to Cadney and Sarah

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#201019: Feb 8th 2020 at 9:21:00 AM

I alluded to this in a previous post, but I think we should take down Thailog of Gargoyles fame. Is he a bad guy? Sure. But here's my counterarguments:

1: He never actually kills anyone on-screen, in the cartoon or the comic. He tries, but never succeeds. Compare this to villains like Hakon, King Duncan, Demona, John Canmore, and Wolf, who each have an established body count, yet are not considered C Ms.

2: His other actions are pretty standard for villains. Making an army of loyal clones? Xanatos and Sevarius tried to do that. Didn't work. Tried to trick two people into killing each other, while pretending to be helping one? King Duncan did that, and succeeeded. The events of Genesis Undone, where he sacrifices the lives of himself and the clones to create a "son" to fight the Clan aren't too atypical of really spiteful villains, and they aren't even canon any more.

I really don't think he meets the heinousness standard.

Edited by Critica7 on Feb 8th 2020 at 9:39:25 AM

Check out my current fanfiction project.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#201020: Feb 8th 2020 at 9:54:17 AM

We had discussed this with Thailog. The attempts to kill plus the deeply personal crimes were ruled enough to put him over.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#201021: Feb 8th 2020 at 9:58:37 AM

Now I'm starting to think we should add Thailog to the NA list.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#201022: Feb 8th 2020 at 10:16:21 AM

1. Attempting to kill is generally enough, especially if the planned bodycount is clear and high enough. While I have little knowledge about Gargoyles, IIRC, the characters you compared him to either have redeeming qualities (Demona?), lack sufficient heinousness in spite of having an actual bodycount, or have other mitigating factors.

2. Lightysnake mentioned that the personal villainy stuff pushed him over, in spite of these standard actions you just mentioned.

[up] Was Thailog brought up so many times that he warrants a place in the NA list? We shouldn't have to say Never Again list each time a character is brought up again, right?

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Feb 8th 2020 at 7:17:31 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#201023: Feb 8th 2020 at 10:26:04 AM

He's not worth putting on the NA list. I think that I was the last person to bring him up and that was early last year.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#201024: Feb 8th 2020 at 10:30:04 AM

So, i've watched the OVAs. Literally the only demons from first two OVAs, who are heinous are Jinmen And Sirene. Jinmen trapped around a dozen of people in his shell to torture them and Sirene blow up part of the town, also with at least a doze victims. Satan destroyed humanity in the beginning of last OVA, where Amon appeared and before that he spread a paranoia among the population, leading to humans attacking other humans in suspicion of them being a demon.

In Amon's favor, he has VERY limited screentime in the OVA, which is supposed to be centered around him. He is completely absent in the first half, when he emerged, all land was already a wasteland. In a very short time he slaughtered group of demons and very sadistically kills the youngest of Devilmen:

(1:55 time mark)

Then he challenges Satan, who easily nullifies Amon's attacks, leading Amon to get back into his own mind to try to destroy Akira, so he could control his body completely. He does so by torturing Akira by showing him Miki's death and then fights him, showing off his sadism:

So, yeah. His sadism in eating the young child (specifically waiting for her to wake up, before he starts eating her), his sadism in killing demons (to the point of making the hands of the leader of the group explode when he managed to grap him) and his sadism in torturing Akira with painful memories are the only thing that could push him over. You can also add the fact that due to the fact that he was only able to emerge long after most of humanity is gone, kinda not allows him to go crazy with his powers. Also he is the only demon in all the OVAs (aside from leader of that group who killed a couple of his mooks for retreating), who kills other demons and enjoys it.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 8th 2020 at 9:33:44 PM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#201025: Feb 8th 2020 at 10:34:14 AM

I thought it was already mentioned that child murder was done repeatedly.


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