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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Pemulis_128 A 20th Century Boy from Teleporting behind you Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
A 20th Century Boy
#200901: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:35:18 PM

The Devilman continuity can get pretty complicated but to put it simply, most of the various manga series (with the exception of Grimoire) are actually connected to each other as part of a time loop and are the same continuity. The old entry only included Jinmen's appearances in the original manga and it's OVA adaptation. Anyway, I'll be voting [tup] to rewriting and expanding the entry.

Edited by Pemulis_128 on Feb 7th 2020 at 3:39:01 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#200902: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:36:03 PM

@Imperial Agreed. I see you fixed it. Well done.

Had another thought about Shan Yu. Forgot though.

How Dry Eye stands now:

  • The Gentlemen: Dry Eye is an enforcer in the Chinese mob. Introduced receiving human traffics for Lord George, Dry Eye gives a veiled threat to the seller when he does not have the money to pay him. The crime syndicate Dry Eye works for distributes heroin, which leads to the fatal overdosing of the teenaged Laura Pressfield. Dry Eye helps Matthew Berger to try to undermine Mickey Pearson's own cannabis business for a lower price, but threatens him when he decides he wants it only for himself instead. Dry Eye then has Lord George killed when he confronts him about his betrayal and then later threatens and attempts to rape Mickey's wife Rosalind when she fights back. Despite mob violence from others as well, Dry Eye is the coldest and most uncaring by comparison.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200903: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:38:26 PM

So the tree should probably look something like this:

  • Devilman:
    • Jinmen, the depraved turtle-like demon, eats humans alive to devour their souls, leaving an imprint of them on his shell trapped in agony. Jinmen targets vulnerable humans on purpose, with children being a favorite meal, including a ten-year-old named Sachiko who had befriended protagonist Akira Fudo. Those he devours are left alive and conscious, but trapped until Akira kills him. In Devilman Grimoire, Jinmen adds the rape of Illuge to his list of crimes. In the OVA series, Jinmen is just as vile as his manga counterpart. Upon awakening from suspended animation, he kills Akira Fudo's parents—with Akira's mother being dismembered and bisected—and traps Akira's mother's soul on his shell in a state of agony along with several other souls. When Akira is distressed by the sight of his mother's suffering, Jinmen exploits his weakness to discourage him from transforming into Devilman and severely beats him he is still in human form.
    • Amon: The Darkside of the Devilman: Cadney was a Serial Killer before achieving great power. In the post apocalyptic world, Cadney ekes out a power base by convincing humans there is no such thing as Devilmen, resulting in purges of countless peaceful humans believed to be demons. Cadney takes delight in the deaths of the innocent and simply enjoys wielding power over others.
    • Devilman Lady:
      • Lan Asuka is revealed to have been manipulating protagonist Jun Fudo the whole time. First awakening Jun's powers as a monstrous Devil Beast by letting another attack and try to rape and eat Jun, Asuka formed a lust towards Jun's alter-ego of Devilman Lady and constantly toyed with her and her friends. Asuka manipulated conflicts throughout the series between humans and the mostly peaceful Devil Beasts, resulting in camps formed to hold and exterminate all the Devil Beasts. Asuka lured Jun to her and revealed her true intent: Despising the world and all in it, Asuka, who had been born both male and female, wanted to use Jun to become a new God of the world. Asuka paralyzed Jun and then, demanding Jun "prove" her love for Asuka, raped a traumatized and terrified Jun before informing her Jun had been born solely for her and would now die for her before disposing of her. When Jun returned, the newly deified Asuka mocked her, saying being perfect was too good for a "hideous creature" like Jun before trying to destroy her in their final battle. Valuing her own ego above all else, Asuka was a manipulative and cruel embodiment of lust and selfishness.
      • Satoru, the seemingly young leader of the militant Devil Beasts, is an absolute sadist who believes in the genocide of humankind. Devoting himself to the supremacy of Devil Beasts, Satoru inspires the awakening of them as feral beasts who slaughter those around them while masterminding a series of brutal terrorist activities that claim many lives. With no patience for Devil Beasts who fail to embrace his fanaticism, Satoru sees them as enemies to be annihilated, especially Jun Fudo who Satoru dedicates himself to destroying mentally. Satoru at one point abducts and brutally murders Jun's friend/Love Interest Kazumi while mocking her over the death of "one human", before attempting to finally kill Jun himself. Sinister, cruel and monstrous, Satoru shows that he and Asuka are simply two sides of a dark coin.

Edited by ACW on Feb 7th 2020 at 7:10:04 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#200904: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:39:27 PM

I agree about expanding Jinmen, but do expansikns usually need a seperate ep?

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#200905: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:41:03 PM

To clarify my point with the "maybe Shan Yu is invading to feed his people' wasn't to say that he shouldn't count because of Alternate Character Interptation, the point was that since he has no real motives given in the film they could theoretically be anything which makes him more of a Generic Doomsday Villain.

But I do see the argument for keeping him a lot better now so yeah I can see why he's considered a CM and I'll withdraw the motion to get rid of him.

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 7th 2020 at 1:41:31 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#200907: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:42:00 PM

Yes to Jinmen. I have an EP planned for tonight/sometime tomorrow. So look forward to that.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200908: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:46:08 PM

Library: Not usually, but it never hurts.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200909: Feb 7th 2020 at 2:07:45 PM

[tup]Jinmen That depraved turtle creep.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#200911: Feb 7th 2020 at 2:50:27 PM

[tup] to Jinmen

I know this character has come up here and there on the thread, but he has never received a formal effortpost as far as I can tell, so I would like to propose him.

What's the work?

The Departed is a 2006 mobster movie directed by Martin Scorsese starting Leonardo DiCaprio, Matt Damon, and Jack Nicholson among others. Rookie Boston cop Billy Costigan is sent undercover to infiltrate Irish mob boss Frank Costello's operation, while Costello himself sends his loyal minion Colin Sullivan to infiltrate the Boston police, resulting in a very twist-filled cat and mouse story.

Who is Costello? What has he done?

Frank Costello, played by Jack Nicholson, is an Irish mob boss who controls much of the crime in Boston.

Costello is a cold-blooded killer, with one scene from his past showcasing him shooting a couple through their heads, before laughing in glee at how the woman's body "fell (over) funny."

In the present day, Costello hires a man named Myles Kennefick to steal a bundle of microprocessors that can be used to help with missile development. Murdering Kennefick to tie up that loose end and threatening the man's mother to keep quiet about it, Costello hides the real microprocessors somewhere unknown, selling fakes to a Chinese military group and cheating them out of money.

When Billy Costigan goes undercover and assaults a rival gang's thugs, Costello tortures Costigan by repeatedly smashing his broken hand to learn if Costigan is still a cop, but Costigan swears he isn't and Costello, seeing use for Costigan, lets him go and kills the two thugs Costigan assaulted, before framing an innocent man for the killings, getting him locked up and and eventually leading to the man's death.

Later casually displaying a dismembered hand he cut off of someone that crossed him, Costello recruits Costigan and begins sending him with his other goons to carry out his interests, from shaking down and torturing shopowners for money to killing several people—sometimes by bashing their heads in, other times by shooting them dead.

Using Colin Sullivan as a mole in the police, Costello verbally abuses him despite being a father figure to him, and threatens to have Sullivan's girlfriend Madolyn raped if Sullivan doesn't continue to follow Costello's orders.

After learning that he has a mole in his group, Costello tries to weed the mole out, and eventually sends his goons to kill police captain Queenan in an attempt on the mole's life as well, resulting in Queenan being thrown off a building to his death.

Costello is later seen coated in someone's blood, remarking that he's finishing something up and needs a mop and bucket to clean up the mess he's left of the victim.

After being betrayed by Sullivan, Costello is ambushed by police officers, where his loyal number 2 man Mr. French is shot. Costello doesn't even check on French, instead quickly ditching French and trying to escape. Sullivan confronts Costello and it turns out that Costello is an FBI informant who has been gathering dirt on all of his men to be used to turn them in if the need should ever arise. Costello tries to shoot Sullivan dead for betraying him, but Sullivan gets the upper hand and kills Costello.

As a last method of taking any of his men down with him, Costello left all of his evidence with his lawyer with instructions to bring it to Costigan should anything happen to Costello as "insurance," so as that Costigan could use the evidence to avenge him.

Does Costello have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

I don't believe so. Costello refuses the idea that he is a "product of his environment," instead embracing that he's made his own choices in life to become who he is. He even brags about the fact that he doesn't do his crimes because he needs money or power, he just likes it.

He has amicable chats with Mr. French, but he callously leaves him to die without even blinking at the end, and the "insurance" shows he trusted Costigan more anyway. Costello also has a mistress, Gwen, but he only uses her for sex appeal and as a trophy. He never treats her with respect, and even harshly snarls at her to "shut your fucking mouth" when she snarks at him.

Costello took Sullivan under his wings when he was a boy, and treated him well enough, but he uses Sullivan as a tool and verbally abuses him regularly (and an interview with Martin Scorsese has Scorsese even imply that Costello sexually or physically abused Sullivan as a child), and angrily tries to shoot Sullivan down without hesitation for betraying him.

Costello does seem to trust Costigan, but this is only after months of having him under his thumb. Costello often intimidates Costigan in the belief he could be a mole and has zero problem threatening to murder him if he doesn't follow orders, and leaving him the evidence to incriminate his crew seems based on a belief that Costigan will use the "insurance" to screw over whoever took Costello down. Costello trusts Costigan, but there is never anything to imply he cares about him, or anyone except himself.

Is Costello sufficiently heinous?

I think so, I know some mentioned in the past he was not heinous enough for a mob boss, but Costello has at least 8 onscreen murders that can be tied to him (the young couple, the two thugs, Kennefick, two people his goons are shown killing, and Queenan), threats of death to many innocent people, framing an innocent man leading to his death, threatening to have Sullivan's girlfriend raped, tortures Costigan, showcasing that he chopped off a man's hand, doing something to someone that left him covered in blood and needing a mop and bucket to clean up the mess, as well as callously leaving French to die and trying to shoot Sullivan without blinking.

All of this is more than heinous enough for me.

Final Verdict?

Though close, I think Costello could be a [tup]

Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Feb 7th 2020 at 2:52:22 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#200913: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:15:44 PM

I need to think Costello. It's been years since I have seen the movie.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#200914: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:32:41 PM

I mean, laid out, seems like he's a surprisingly obvious open-and-shut "yes." Half the villainy being pointing-and-threatening matters less because it seems his onscreen body count and For the Evulz motivation are sufficient for the genre.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200915: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:34:15 PM

[tup]costello

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200916: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:34:26 PM

I'll give Costello a yes. I mean, even besides the onscreen stuff, he's a freaking mob boss, with all that entails. I was thinking if this would be the first for Jack; I forgot Jack.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#200917: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:37:59 PM

[tup] Frank.

[up] If I remember correctly Jack also played Joker, who was also named Jack, from the original Tim Burton Batman movie.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#200918: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:39:06 PM

After thinking about it. Yes to Costello. I'm not really that versed in gangster films and was worried about the heinous standard. But yeah that sounds like going above it. Second CM from under Martin Scorsese direction.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 7th 2020 at 5:39:56 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200919: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:39:45 PM

First was Max Cady right ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#200921: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:41:41 PM

[tup] Costello.

Also, I'm really not sure Thailog from Western Animation/Gargoyles really deserves to be listed as a CM. I know he's never really shown much of any redeeming qualities per se, but his actual actions are...unexceptional, even for the series.

Check out my current fanfiction project.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200922: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:44:28 PM

Micheal...that was the joke [lol]

Also, kinda surprised it's only Scorsese's second. Though it looks like Joe Pesci's characters in Casino and Goodfellas, while bad, have redeeming qualities.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#200923: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:50:26 PM

[up] Oh, I did not realize that. My bad.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#200924: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:53:20 PM

[tup] Jinmen and Frank Costello.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#200925: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:53:43 PM

Granted I've never seen that movie, but my question for Costello before giving him a Yes would be are his actions considered truly horrible even for the setting? Of course they are horrible, but in a dark and gritty mob movie most of the characters do awful things. If his actions are considered too far/beyond the pale even to the other characters In-Universe then I'd say he qualifies.


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