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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#200876: Feb 7th 2020 at 7:56:28 AM

[up] Not sure there's a minimum, at least in terms of raw numbers. It's just when we decide attempts to dispute have come up enough with no change in consensus to justify adding the character to the list.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200877: Feb 7th 2020 at 8:01:46 AM

Yeah, seconding [up]. If Shan Yu comes up again, then he might be worth adding, but for now I think we're good.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#200878: Feb 7th 2020 at 8:44:17 AM

Shan-Yu absolutely keeps. Pointless, discussion is pointless especially arguing what exactly pushes him over. He slaughtered an entire village with at least one child in it in a lighthearted film. That alone is bad enough.

PureGrainAlkaSeltzer The Lord Of Walruses from 1200 Pennsylvania Ave Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
The Lord Of Walruses
#200879: Feb 7th 2020 at 10:06:37 AM

Keep Shan Yu

I don’t have any new EPS, but I have the Johnny Socko C Ms ready. Sorry for the wait, it’s been a long two weeks.

  • Johnny Sokko And His Flying Robot: (The English dub of the Giant Robo toku by American International Television) Johnny Sokko and Jerry Mano have fought many evil foes in their fight against the Gargoyle Gang, with these being the worst they had to offer:

    • Emperor Guillotine is a galactic conqueror with his sights set on earth. Crashing into the ocean, Guillotine forms the terrorist group The Gargoyle Gang. Kidnapping Dr. Guardian to create an indestructible robot for the Gargoyle Gang, he plans on using the robot to assist in conquering the world. When Johnny Sokko get the robots controls and uses them to escape the island with Unicorn agent Jerry Mano, he orders it captured of destroyed with the sea monster Dracolon, despite Giant Robot flying towards Tokyo. Guillotine rules Gargoyle with an iron fist, using child soldiers, planting bombs in his men, and threatening to kill his commanders for their failures, eventually killing Dr. Botanus when he fails too many times. Throughout the series, Guillotine plays a hand in a number of Gargoyle Gang atrocities, such as trying to start a war, ordering experiments on captured Unicorn agents, and ransoming a princess of a small country to get his hands on a rare radioactive metal. In the final episode, he resurrects three monsters to get drain Giant Robots remaining energy, and reveals that if he were attacked, his body would detonate in an atomic explosion, taking the world with him, demonstrating this by destroying a field with a fingernail, and declares that the earth will answer him.

    • The aforementioned Dr. Botanus is an egotistical alien scientist and surgeon hired by Emperor Guillotine to help him conquer earth. Working with Commander Spider, he kidnaps Dr. Dorian to force him to grow a Gargoyle Vine, a dangerous plants than can destroy the world. When Dorian refuses to help him grow the plants, Botanus alters Dorians brain to put him under mind control, ordering him to grow Gargoyle Vines. When Dr. Dorian returns to normal, Dr. Botanus mocks Dorian for unwittingly helping to create Gargoyle vines. Later attacking oil production on the Middle East with Commander Spider, he lets his men massacre oil workers simply to force their foreman to give him the blueprints of a drill. He later kidnaps 60,000 people from a soccer game, where he gives Japan 24 hours to surrender to Guillotine or else he will kill the hostages. When one of his men begs Botanus to release his brother, who is among the hostages, Botanus coldly calls him an idiot, telling him that he will die with the rest of the hostages. Other acts include ordering the monster Amberon to destroy Tokyo, kidnapping and brainwashing the Unicorn Kyoto branch leader to attack a Unicorn conference, and using another Gargoyle Vine to cover the earth in lava. Defined by his willingness to kill thousands with a feeling of smug satisfaction, Dr. Botanus represents the worst of Gargoyle.

    • Harlequin is a brutal Gargoyle commander who appeared after the death of Commander Spider. Initially appearing to be a Gargoyle deserter seeking help getting his kids from Gargoyle custody, he lures Johnny and Jerry into a trap to be killed by the monster Dublion. When Jerry begs him to release the kids, Harlequin says that he doesn’t care, as he had already killed two of his men to get the duo into his grasp. Later working with the aforementioned Doctor Botanus to attack a Unicorn conference, he kidnaps the Unicorn Kyoto branch leader, and personally controls his monster Lygon to attack the conference. Later he demolishes a Unicorn base in the arctic with Dracolon. After Johnny and Jerry investigate, he kidnaps them, and then attacks Tokyo under Guillotines orders, decimating Tokyo in a flood of sand. In his final appearance, he breaks Dr. Botanus out of Unicorn custody be sneaking in the monster Amberon into Unicorn headquarters, which kills multiple agents. When Johnny and another Unicorn agents Mari investigate, he ties them to trees and prepares to kill them with a firing squad before he is stopped.

    • Dr. Snake, appearing in the episode “Torozan-An Enemy Robot”, is a Gargoyle scientist who has been destroying Unicorn branches across the globe with his own giant robot, Torozan, with his new target being the Unicorn Japan branch. Wanting to destroy Unicorns radar capabilities, he learns that the wife of the radar bases commander, Sebola, is in a coma. Using this, he threatens to put Sebolas children into a coma like his wife if he doesn’t give Dr. Snake the location to the radar base. When the attack fails due to Johnny and Giant Robots interference, he has Sebola lead him to the radar base, having him kill his men with a gas bomb when they refuse to leave. Using the radar base as a place to control Torozan, he begins demolishing Tokyo. Whenever Sebola objects to any of his demands, Dr. Snake threatens to kill his family, and almost destroys Giant Robot before he is stopped.

Edited by PureGrainAlkaSeltzer on Feb 7th 2020 at 10:37:40 AM

I have no idea what I am doing
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#200881: Feb 7th 2020 at 10:58:42 AM

@ACW Again, I'm doubting if Dry Eye is actually Lord George's nephew and if his actual uncle is the boss he himself answers to. It changes nothing, but may want to take out the uncle reference and remove the Evil Nephew pothole.

Need confirmation from someone else who's seen the movie.

FIFTH Guy Ritchie CM in case anyone missed my edit. I'll do it myself (fixed under drafts too):

  • The Gentlemen: Dry Eye is an enforcer in the Chinese mob. Introduced receiving human traffics for Lord George, Dry Eye gives a veiled threat to the seller when he does not have the money to pay him. The crime syndicate Dry Eye works for distributes heroin, which leads to the fatal overdosing of the teenaged Laura Pressfield. Dry Eye helps Matthew Berger to try to undermine Mickey Pearson's own cannabis business for a lower price, but threatens him when he decides he wants it only for himself instead. Dry Eye then has Lord George killed when he confronts him about his betrayal and then later threatens and attempts to rape Mickey's wife Rosalind when she fights back. Despite mob violence from others as well, Dry Eye is the coldest and most uncaring by comparison.

Replaced that pothole with Dragon Ascendant unless there's something better than by all means.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 7th 2020 at 11:02:04 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200882: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:04:10 AM

I think THAT pothole was XO or someone else. Usually, I remove them from the Drafts once I've done what I do.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#200883: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:07:55 AM

[up][up] The Starscream probably works better since he murdered him to take over.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#200884: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:11:27 AM

Since Jinmen have appeared in Devilman Lady, Devilman Saga and Shin Violent Jack, should i re-EP him to justify rewriting him to include his deeds from those mangas or i can just rewrite his entry?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200885: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:34:01 AM

Geeze, he does even more shit besides the And I Must Scream and the rape?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200886: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:37:28 AM

Isn't the rape in a different continuity from the OG manga/Devilman lady and violence jack.

I think Vile said he wanted to ep that version of jinmen separately as well (Grimoire version ).

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200887: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:38:40 AM

It might not hurt to have a split Jinmen like we do for Gul'dan.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#200888: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:40:45 AM

Jinmen is basically a Breakout Villain who shows up constantly in different adaptations/sequels, etc. He was also back in Devilman vs. Hades, which is a direct sequel.

I've kinda been the Devilman guy here so far, so which do you have in mind, Vile?

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#200889: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:41:45 AM

Grimoire is only translated at 3 and a half chapters from what i seen (and he only appeared in one chapter). So instead i will propose the version of his from Devilman vs Hades (which is AU of Devilman story, where Akira escaped the final battle and survived instead of dying from Satan's hands).

[up]I plan on re-EPing original Jinmen, adding his deeds in Devilman Lady, Devilman Saga and Shin Violent Jack, then i propose Jinmen from Devilman vs Hades.

Next i plan on checking 1972 Devilman anime, which is said to have a different story than Devilman manga, with no Satan and "Monster of the week" type of structure.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 7th 2020 at 10:45:33 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#200890: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:43:50 AM

I'm gonna be buying the Grimoire manga eventually myself.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200891: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:44:06 AM

[up][up][up]Which is amazing too when you remember he's just a motw in the original manga. Now he's easily one of the franchises most iconic and most recurring villains.

[up]According to wikis

Jinmen (Grimoire): Operates under a human disguise under the name of "Mr. Death-Mask" he acts as a serial killer targeting human and demons including Illuge.

So yeah Jinmen's grimoire version might be worth an entry of his own

Edited by miraculous on Feb 7th 2020 at 11:45:53 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200892: Feb 7th 2020 at 11:47:44 AM

No surprise considering the And I Must Scream. Hell, freaking Joker was like that. Apparently Luthor too.

Pemulis_128 A 20th Century Boy from Teleporting behind you Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
A 20th Century Boy
#200893: Feb 7th 2020 at 12:58:21 PM

[up][up][up][up] Grimoire did receive a full English translation from Seven Seas Publishing. It's just that the online scanlation stopped at the first few chapters for whatever reason.

Edited by Pemulis_128 on Feb 7th 2020 at 2:58:33 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#200894: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:08:28 PM

Because scans should stop when there's an official product. But that's neither here nor there. I'll pick it up sooner or later

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#200895: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:11:28 PM

So, here is Jinmen expansion proposal

What's the work?

Devilman is the popular manga from 1972 written by Go Nagai, which spawned entire franchise, which includes a lot of manga's (AU, spin-offs, sequels and so on), movie, OVAs, anime series and even couple of games. Following Akira Fudo, an ordinary high school student, who became a Devilman (basically a demon, who retained his humanity) through a ritual, which was set up by his friend Ryo Asuka (who turns out to actually be Satan), in order to battle demons, who want to annihilate humanity. Due to many tragedies and horrific events, Satan wins and Akira died, God reset time and banished them from Earth again, leading to recreation of humanity and things went as if demons never invaded (this is where sequels set in).

Here is one of the most popular, yet minor villains in the setting - Jinmen.

Who is Jinmen?

Jinmen is a turtle-like demon, who is one of the most sadistic creatures in Devilman universe. During demons invasion on Earth, where they massively possessed people and cause horrific events, Jinmen used the disguise of guard of the train with a lot of people, among whom was Akira's younger sister. Joyfully slaughtering all people in the train alongside a fellow demon, Jinmen ate several of them and imprisoned them in his shell, solely so he could torture them forever. Calling Akira through the phone, Jinmen said to him to go into the park, where he revealed all his still living victims to him, saying that he is better than most demons and humans due to the fact that he is eating his prey but not killing them in obvious sadistic joy. Angered Akira attacks Jinmen and after a fight, during which Jinmen used his victims as human shield, Akira killed him by tearing his shell off, supposedly freeing his victims.

But as we find out later in Devilman Lady, his victims were not freed, Jinmen dragged them all to hell with him to torture and after devouring countless souls and people to make himself bigger and stronger, Jinmen joins Vlava's attempt to kill Devilman and Devilman Lady, after they got trapped in Hell (well Devilman was trapped in hell for a long time now, but Jinmen was never able to find him). After some fight, during which Jinmen sadistically taunted Akira with his dead sister on his shell, Akira killed Jinmen once again, now actually freeing hundreds of his victims from torment, resulting in Jinmen transforming back to small turtle, which was smashed by Akira.

Later in Shin Violence Jack, Jinmen possessed Captain Choihi from an army of former actors, who went crazy and imagined themselves to be an army that wants to return the destroyed territory to Imperial Japan more tyrannical years. Eating members of that army and scaring everyone into staying silent, Jinmen joined Skull King's kingdom (made out of bones and dead bodies), where demons tortured, raped and killed. Jinmen was one of the leading demons in ruling this kingdom under Skull King, whom he helped other demons goat into continuing this rule (as well as continuing eating and trapping people in his shell). After Violence Jack beaten him and all other demons and defeated Skull King and banished all demons back to Hell, Jinmen was banished as well.

Later in Devilman Saga, where in the future humans discovered armors of demons (Sirene, Amon and ec.), they started using them to battle monsters and demons but it resulted in demons (whom armor belonged to) possessing them. Main characters use armor of Sirene and Amon and Kaim (perhaps the most nonviolent demon in the setting) managed to come to life through possessing his wielder and desires to help humans. Jinmen managed to possess a corrupt professor Kamei, after one of the characters decided to use demons armor for his own evil purposes and has armors possess some of his co-workers. Later on Kamei in Jinmen's armor slaughters a group of bikers and we see one of their faces emerging on his spine. This manga isn't finished yet, two chapters remaining, so it is on cliffhanger for a while and I will update if anything new come out.

Heinousness?

Devilman's heinous standard very high, all demons engage in slaughter, killing children is not special, rape is common, bodycounts are in masses, but Jinmen stands out because of his sadism, his "trapping people in his shell to torture forever" method of killings (which nobody aside from him is doing). In Devilman Lady he extends his number of victims to masses too and even dragged them to hell with him. He helped to establish Skull King's monstrous kingdom of rape and torture and was fine with helping expanding it.

Mitigating Qualities?

None. Jinmen is a selfish sadist through and through and demons in Devilman universe have a complete agency. So he keeps.

Conclusion?

I will say Yes to rewrite.

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#200898: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:30:51 PM

  • Kontamination: Major Wolfram Engel is a vile, sickly-looking Nazi who experiments in exposing people to another realm merely called the Beyond, resulting in a slew of people driven to madness and death from his experiments. Engel devises a way to create a contagious form of madness he infests in a series of captured American soldiers, breaking their minds, intending to unleash them onto their own Allies and spread it to destroy the minds of the enemy soldiers and have them kill each other in waves. Engel happily demonstrates the virus on an Allied-occupied German town to kill as many American soldiers as he can. Barely even loyal to his own side, Engel is happily willing to exploit and even kill his duped allies through his strategies.

  • The Rise of Kyoshi: Xu Ping An is a Firebender warlord with a finely-honed, superficial sense of charisma he uses to reign in a loyal gathering of marauders with which he pledges to overthrow the law and let anarchy reign. Xu put entire villages of "abiders" to the sword, leaving countless corpses stacked behind him until his rampage was finally stopped by Jianzhu. When inadvertently broken out eight years later by the Avatar, Kyoshi, Xu muses that the land has forgotten his name and pledges to scar his name into history in a way they will never forget. To begin his new wave of bloodshed, Xucaptures a family and forces them to watch as he dunks the father in and out of a pot of boiling water, gleefully intending to move on to slaughter the nearest town. Xu even uses his rare ability to bend lightning to savagely torture Kyoshi, proclaiming himself absolute and that all anyone can ever hope to do against him is obey.

  • Demon Hunter Mitsurugi: Bachibachi, the Scorpion lieutenant from the tenth episode, is the worst of the mostly-faceless Scorpion mooks. Bachibachi unleashes the Monster of the Week, Kabuton, on entire towns and villages, while kidnapping droves of people to feed it and mercilessly slaughtering everyone in his way. Bachibachi has picked one village so clean of people it has been reduced to a scared smattering of survivors, and gleefully attempts to feed the surviving children to Kabuton. When one old man creates a poison to kill Kabuton, Bachibachi dissolves him alive in it and tries to use the poison Edo's water supply to kill its entire population. A Bad Boss who runs his own men through and looks the other way when they're poisoned besides, Bachibachi even manages to spitefully kill one final survivor of the desolated village before his own demise.

  • Lyrec: Miradomon, the monstrous archnemesis of Lyrec and Borregad, destroyed his and Lyrec's entire race in his pursuit to strengthen himself through the death energy of others. Miradomon moved on from cooking entire worlds alive by overcharging their suns to designing more meticulous ways to turn them against each other and destroy themselves, instead. In the High Fantasy world Miradomon and Lyrec find themselves leaping to, Miradomon gets up his usual habits: subverting religious authority to initiate a massacre against the magical Kobach population; murdering the country's king and possessing the young prince in order to author further bloodshed; and at one point muses he'll set up the homeless and destitute of a city he's about to have razed as human barriers to soak up the slaughter first. Miradomon tries to throw the entire planet into a series of violent wars, killing his servants one after another when they fail him or balk at his horrific demands, at one point flaying a corrupt pawn and leaving his skin to flap in the wind upon his castle. Miradomon even reveals he's captured Lyrec's lost love Alystroya purely to hurt him, and makes his final ultimatum to Lyrec: when he annihilates all existence and creates a new universe of chaos atop of it, Lyrec will be split into a billion agonizing, eternal deaths across it.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#200899: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:31:14 PM

[tup] to Jinmen.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 7th 2020 at 1:32:49 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200900: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:31:54 PM

And this is all the same continuity? Yeesh. Yeah, Jinmen DEFINITELY deserves an expansion.

Could this Skull King fellow count?


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