During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ransacking a village and killing everyone - including children - in it is something a lot of "barbarian horde" villains do; many of which are not on the CM list.
Now, it's an MEH for sure and it goes above the general quantifiers for generic villainy, but for specifically "barbarian horde" villains, it's par for the course.
Most "barbarian horde" villains, however, do not make ransacking a village and killing everyone in it the subject of a dry little quip. That's what elevates the action over the heinous line; Shan Yu casually jokes about mass slaughter. That's what separates him from others of his archetype.
The reason why the messenger scene always stands out as more heinous to me is a) because it happens (roughly) onscreen and b) because it's a little bit of pointless sadism. He didn't need to kill one of them, but he ordered it anyway - and, again, makes a dry little quip about it.
Edited by Nathanoraptor on Feb 7th 2020 at 2:34:14 PM
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Yeah, looks like he got enough.
After my NUMB3RS trio and The Cossack (finally got a 616 guy!), I'm tapped out for now, unless the new In Death book has one.
I'm also going to note I don't find the "it was ancient times, so war crimes aren't as bad" a compelling argument. Mulan is not accurate to history or myth. If it was, the Emperor would hike up the heinous standard more than anyone else, but he's presented as a wise and peaceful ruler with no indication he's responsible for things the actual Emperor Qin did like burying scholars alive, murdering tons of civilians and so on.
Trying to ascribe him sympathetic motives is a no-go. He says in the film directly why he's invading. Wall goes up? He feels challenged. Personality? He's got it in abundance. Deeds? For a relatively lighthearted kids' film, I'd say the village massacre is enough. It's not just the villagers, either: he slaughters Shang's father's entire company in an ambush, and we do get to know the army well enough.
I'm not seeing him going anywhere.
Ask who? Its the first time for me with all this image things, so i have no idea how could i suggest it properly and load images on TV Tropes.
Gotta agree with you there; if nothing else, citing Values Dissonance opens up a whole can of worms.
However, the messenger scene always stood out as more heinous to me. Now, the village massacre's an MEH for sure and it goes above the general quantifiers for generic villainy, but for specifically "barbarian horde" villains, it's par for the course.
The messenger scene always stood out more to me because a) it happens (roughly) onscreen and b) it's a little bit of pointless sadism. He didn't need to kill one of them, but he ordered it anyway, whilst they were retreating - and makes a dry little quip about it.
Edited by Nathanoraptor on Feb 7th 2020 at 2:51:09 PM
Yes to Dry Eye and absolute yes to keeping Shan-Yu. In A Song of Ice and Fire, Shan-Yu could be even be a neutral character. But in a Disney movie? Massacring a village full of women and children? That's going above and beyond.
Edited by emperors on Feb 7th 2020 at 9:51:47 AM
Welcome to the world of greatest media!Very belated
to the Sigma picture. Sorry, that wasn't deliberately ignoring it on my part.
I'm fine leaving Shan Yu for now, he seems to fit the criteria soundly. To elaborate on what's been said, we don't go "we will only discuss X character once", I've seen candidates been cut and then re added like the cop from Dead Rising, or Syndrome from Incredibles, but there typically has to be a significant argument to make us reconsider our perspective. With that said, we do have a "special no discussion again" list.
Edited by captainmarkle on Feb 7th 2020 at 2:52:46 PM
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.Yeah he created the great wall which would make him qin.
It's sorta weird too since qin is probably one of the most psychopathic conquerors ever.
Also yeah shan yu stays.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 7th 2020 at 6:56:45 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."@emperors
This was at the tail-end of the Disney Renaissance, where villains were pretty dark as a general rule. Cf: Scar, Frollo, Percival McLeach and Clayton.
In the Wolfgang Reitherman era, Shan Yu would REALLY stand out, but in the Renaissance, he's typical of a bad bunch.
EDIT: I have just been reliably informed that Rourke is not a Renaissance villain. Point still stands, however; '90s Disney villains were nasty sods.
Edited by Nathanoraptor on Feb 7th 2020 at 4:33:15 PM
Got nothing. I'm making my way through a new urban fantasy series I found. Thing is well the first guy is heinous enough. The standard is jacked so I'm making sure to read enough ahead that he doesn't get blown away.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."@ACW: Or we can just...you know. Do other stuff. Outside this forum. Or outside.
-sees flurries outside-
Okay, inside.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Shan Yu. Abstain on Dry Eyes.
captainmarkle: Speaking of the Never Again list, I was about to suggest adding Shan Yu, but I looked him up and I do not think he was discussed enough times to be added. Out of curiosity, what, exactly, is the minimum amount of times a candidate must be brought up before they can be added to the Never Again list?
Edited by MasterN on Feb 7th 2020 at 7:55:28 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

@ACW Anyone who wasn't a yes was an abstain. Definitely not one of my stronger candidates though admittedly. Very bare bones. There was only so much that could be said.
EDIT: FIFTH in a Guy Ritchie movie. My mistake.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 7th 2020 at 9:54:28 AM