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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#200826: Feb 7th 2020 at 12:00:55 AM

[up] It is never stated or strongly implied that the Huns are invading solely because of the Great Wall being a challenge. That's just a comment he makes while taunting the messanger after he tells him the Emperor will stop him.

Quite frankly I don't think Shan Yu has enough content to be called a Complete Monster. He's more of a Generic Doomsday Villain than anything else - he's in the movie for about 10 minutes and exists simply to threaten the heroes by being an evil warlord who burns down villages. To be a pure evil character you need some amount of characterization in the first place which he has very little of.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#200827: Feb 7th 2020 at 12:10:07 AM

Yeah, Shan-Yu's not going anywhere. Motive? He feels personally challenged by the erection of the Great Wall and wants to conquer China just out of petty spite, he says as much himself ("''By building his wall, he challenged my strength. Well, I'm here to play his game.''") Taunting or not, that's a solid motive given up and front. Heinousness? Massacres an entire village with glee, kills an innocent messenger for fun, and wages war on the Emperor and his soldiers.

Speculation that "he's trying to feed his people" is just that: speculation. The film itself offers no such motive or mindset, so that's right out.

Saying that he doesn't stand up to Facilier, Frollo, etc? Also doesn't work. It is not the same explicit canon as those other films. Mulan doesn't share a heinous standard with The Hunchback of Notre Dame, so saying "Well, these guys are worse" is about the equivalent of saying "We should cut The Dark Knight Joker because the Nicholson's Joker was worse."

Finally, the argument of "this was ancient times, where war was a constant" isn't a valid argument when it comes to this trope. If there were other war crimes committed to the extent of Shan Yu, onscreen? Then sure, you'd have a debatable point. But for what this story offers up and shows us, Shan Yu is the worst it gets. Theorizing "well there's probably other warlords just as bad as Shan Yu" needs in-universe material to back it up. Otherwise, it's nothing but theory and assumptions.

Welcome to the thread, regardless, and don't feel like anyone is attacking you for bringing this up, but Shan Yu actually has been mentioned many times over the years (primarily to debate his status as a Generic Doomsday Villain), and your points don't match up with how we measure this trope. They're interesting arguments, but not viable for how Complete Monster is applied.

Edited by Ravok on Feb 7th 2020 at 12:17:50 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#200829: Feb 7th 2020 at 12:27:39 AM

Also, it being one action Dosent make it any less bad. Its One of those cases where the action is terrible enough to push him over

If a guy blows up a planet, he wouldn't have to also commit some minor crimes to get up.

And...The stuff he does would be enough for him to count even if it were an adult film IMO. Slaughtering a whole village including a little girl is more then enough IMO.

But anyway, welcome to the thread!

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 7th 2020 at 10:34:50 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#200831: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:32:59 AM

Since it gets ignored, I again ask what is consensus on Sigma's image and quote?

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200833: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:40:13 AM

[up][up]Looks Good. Did you propose the image on image pickin.

Also Redwall now has a new picture. So thanks for that

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Nathanoraptor Since: Oct, 2010
#200834: Feb 7th 2020 at 1:56:07 AM

The question with Shan Yu, in my opinion, is not if he qualifies, it's what actions make him qualify.

WaryHoglet has a valid point - massacring a village - including children - full of characters who we've never met or had reason to develop an attachment to is generic villainy. It's sure as hell evil, but it's still generic villainy, when compared to the likes of Frollo, Scar or even Percival McLeach.

What pushes the action that little bit over the heinous line is the nasty little quip he makes before it; he casually jokes about destroying a village and killing everyone in it.

What elevates him, in my opinion, to CM status is the messenger scene. He didn't need to kill one of them, but he ordered it anyway - and, again, makes a dry little quip about it.

If you removed the messenger scene, he'd probably be too generic to qualify.

Edited by Nathanoraptor on Feb 7th 2020 at 10:06:25 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#200835: Feb 7th 2020 at 2:06:49 AM

Uh....no?

Murdering a bunch of innocent civilians and children isn't generic...at all IMO. The fact we don't have "emotional attachment" to them not being a factor.

"Generic Villainy" is stuff like trying to Take Over the World or kill the heroes, or killing 1 or 2 guys. Not when an action Dosent come across as contemptible.

No offense intended But you seem to be mistaking this with Hate Sink.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 7th 2020 at 12:11:07 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Nathanoraptor Since: Oct, 2010
#200836: Feb 7th 2020 at 2:16:19 AM

@Kylotrope

It's generic in the sense that ransacking a village and killing everyone in it is something a lot of "barbarian horde" villains do; it's practically their hat.

Most "barbarian horde" villains, however, do not make ransacking a village and killing everyone in it the subject of a nasty little quip. That's what elevates it over the heinous line; the casual humour which he treats it with.

Edited by Nathanoraptor on Feb 7th 2020 at 10:27:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200837: Feb 7th 2020 at 2:21:15 AM

Yes to Darius, abstain on Dry Eye.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200838: Feb 7th 2020 at 2:49:48 AM

@acw: For metal beak of Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole. His real name is Surtr. Mind adding it to his entry.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 7th 2020 at 2:50:10 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#200839: Feb 7th 2020 at 2:52:58 AM

Regarding Sigma image, I was told by modder to propose it on Image Suggestion thread, where it was ignored, so I once again proposed it here so it can be settled.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200840: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:00:35 AM

[up][up] Is that actually stated in the film, or just in the book?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200841: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:07:27 AM

[up]film exclusive. Their is no metal beak character in the books. Uh well kinda. Sorren's brother kludd is metal beak throughout the entire book series. The film used Decomposite Charcater to turn kludd and metal beak/Surtr into two separate characters.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 7th 2020 at 3:09:52 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200843: Feb 7th 2020 at 3:23:09 AM

I'll just abstain on dry eye sounds too standard for me.

The fact that the slavery operation seems to have been started by his uncle (I think. It's not very clear from the responses). Just sorta leaves him with an attempted rape and a murder or two as a crime that's not dependant on someone else

Edited by miraculous on Feb 7th 2020 at 4:20:30 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#200844: Feb 7th 2020 at 4:43:16 AM

Keep Shan-Yu he is not generic in anyway and is heinous enough. Abstain on Dry Eye having not seen the movie.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#200845: Feb 7th 2020 at 4:57:48 AM

So, so far there was 4 upvotes to the Sigma image it seems. Not sure if it is enough.

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#200846: Feb 7th 2020 at 4:58:25 AM

If there are no downvotes you’re good to go.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 7th 2020 at 7:59:11 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#200847: Feb 7th 2020 at 5:24:30 AM

@Wary It's all enough. A clear impression of him being a warmonger for the hell of it and everything else fully establishes he's only in it because he's blood-hungry and gleefully savage. The dialogue in the messenger scene goes like this: Shan Yu says "How many men does it take to deliver a message?" His archer, pulling back his string goes: "Just one." and then fires. It could be argued the archer thought of it, but it's pretty obvious he knew what Shan Yu meant though.

@ACW Come to think of it, I don't think Big Boy's first name is ever said in Dick Tracy. Should I fix that?

I definitely see more than five votes. Draft it? Already did:

  • The Gentlemen: Dry Eye is an enforcer in the Chinese mob. Introduced receiving human traffics for his uncle Lord George, Dry Eye gives a veiled threat to the seller when he does not have the money to pay him. The crime syndicate Dry Eye works for distributes heroin, which leads to the fatal overdosing of the teenaged Laura Pressfield. Dry Eye helps Matthew Berger to try to undermine Mickey Pearson's own cannabis business for a lower price, but threatens him when he decides he wants it only for himself instead. Dry Eye then has Lord George killed when he confronts him about his betrayal and then later threatens and attempts to rape Mickey's wife Rosalind when she fights back. Despite mob violence from others as well, Dry Eye is the coldest and most uncaring by comparison.

Feels nice to get my first candidate in the new year (and the new decade). smile

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 7th 2020 at 5:26:14 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200848: Feb 7th 2020 at 5:39:41 AM

Dude has enough votes already? Huh.

Also, with Caprice, I think we're good.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#200849: Feb 7th 2020 at 5:42:38 AM

So, should I request putting an image of Sigma on Mega Man page here?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200850: Feb 7th 2020 at 5:48:13 AM

I'm not sure our votes here would matter. Could you ask them to put this picture on the crowner in the image suggestion thread where it can be properly voted on to add.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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