During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Just got back from Birds of Prey (2020). Open for PM's.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Nyarlathotep, Tamamo, Chuck Summers and Darius. It's been a while since we had a mythology candidate.
Is it strange if I end up somewhat respecting a CM? I don't know, I feel they can be somewhat admirable if they have very strong determination and some type of human quality, like they worked incredibly hard to get their goal. I think Makishima is my prime example.
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle@Scraggle, @Beast I'll also try to get to it by the 21st. It looks crazy, but fun crazy.
All goes well, first CM for Henry Golding, fourth for a Guy Ritchie movie and second I've done for Guy Ritchie too.
Let's see what happens:
What is the work?
The Gentlemen is a 2019 gangster film focusing on Mickey Pearson, an American gangster in the UK who has gained success through a cannabis empire and is now looking to sell his business and get out. This however leads to rivals looking into getting it by the easiest means possible and one in particular who stands out just enough.
Who is he and what has he done?
Dry Eye is a Chinese mobster working on behalf of his uncle? Lord George. He's introduced officially as bringing in slaves in a crate from overseas to produce drugs for the business and when learning that the distributor doesn't have the money to pay back, demands he get it to him otherwise Dry Eye, in a veiled threat, will go to the man's family and get it from them. The business makes heroin and as a result, a teen girl named Laura Pressfield (daughter of a royal) ends up dead of an overdose.
Teaming up with Matthew Berger (who Mickey planned to sell the business to), Dry Eye and Berger makes arrangements for one of Mickey's labs to be sabotaged so that he'll be forced to sell the business for less. This involves leaking the info so the guys given the info charge the lab, attack the guards and then film it. Eventually, Dry Eye decides he wants Mickey's business all to himself and he and Berger each tell the other not to get in their way.
When confronted by Lord George for trying to force Mickey to sell to him, Dry Eye has him killed. Later Dry Eye threatens Mickey's wife Rosalind to try to get to Mickey that way. When she kills his two men there with him, Dry Eye pins her on the desk and tries to rape her, but then Mickey shows up and promptly shoots him dead.
Heinous standard?
What makes him different from the others who kill people or drug Big Dave to get him to have his way with a pig (yeah that happens, but he's an Asshole Victim though)? Well Dry Eye kills his boss (I think his own uncle), partakes in the distribution of the heroin (leading to the girl's death) and the enslavement of those who make the heroin. It's suggested that Mickey doesn't use slaves to make his products as they seem to respect and look up to Mickey. Mickey also makes it abundantly clear that he sells the product he does because it's not harmful in the same way as heroin. Fletcher is presenting the facts almost all the time based on us seeing him collect the info, so he's not too much of an Unreliable Narrator. No one really refutes his findings that much either. The clincher for Dry Eye is definitely both the enslavement and his attempted rape of Rosalind though.
Redeeming qualities? Mitigating factors?
Not planning to honor his agreement with Berger and not really caring about any of his men? That's a no on that front and again, compacted by killing his boss (again, I believe is his uncle) and trying to rape the enemy's wife just to get to him all the more. To him, it's all about nothing more than getting what he can for himself and again, while characters like Berger and Lord George don't really have these either, Dry Eye is just savage enough to stand out more. He also just plainly says to hose the slaves down when they were brought over in a freaking crate and then closes them back in there. Mickey definitely treats all his people well.
Verdict?
I think he can clear with a
. Polar saw it for MB I believe, so anything that I was uncertain about can be verified or cleared up by him (again, I saw it Wednesday night, so it was very recent).
Even if George isn't his uncle and his uncle is a separate character, neither relationship is explored and Dry Eye (I keep wanting to say Bird Eye or Bird's Eye haha) still betrayed his boss for power for himself. Be par for the course if not for everything else nasty he does.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 6th 2020 at 9:17:07 AM
I guess? I mean, I'm seeing slavery, some murder and an attempted rape, and the EP is too verbose without narrowing down to the things that make him stick out. If he keeps, it's really, really narrowly. I think yes, but just the rape pushes him over
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 6th 2020 at 9:35:16 AM
Darius and uh I'm not actually sure on dry eye. This ep is just both really bare without really saying in heinous standard what he does to push him over.
It doesn't even say what he does to his slaves leaving that part vaguish. I don't think slavery on its owm is quite enough for cm without any abuse on top of it
Edited by miraculous on Feb 6th 2020 at 10:27:35 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Having seen the movie myself, I’ll give a slight
for Dry Eyes. Unreliable Narrator aside, and while his uncle’s a prick (worker slaves and murder to his name), Dry Eyes just barely passes thanks to the attempted rape.
Uncle has one death to his name (Laura), and I believe the trafficking of humans was a part of his business that Dry Eyes happily took part in (been a while since I saw the movie). DE just barely edges over his uncle.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Feb 6th 2020 at 10:38:36 AM
It's Spooky Month!Hi I've lurked this thread for quite a while but I never really had any reason to post here until now when I noticed a Complete Monster example that doesn't fit
Anyway I want to nominate Shan Yu from Mulan for deletion.
Shan Yu is a pretty typical Evil Overlord / General Ripper, and he stands out because he's in a kids movie, but that's Knight of Cerebus, not Complete Monster. He doesn't qualify as a Monster for two reasons, the first being that he has no defined motivations. He's leading the Hun Army to invade China, but the movie never gives any clue as to why he is doing this because he and the huns barely get any screentime aside from fighting the good guys. For all we know he's invading China because China ripped the Huns off in a trade deal and he needs to take it over to feed his people or something understandable - the point is that there is no motivation given one way or the other which weakens his case for Complete Monster considerably.
The second reason he doesn't fit is that he doesn't meet the heinous standard, even for Disney. Looking at his entry:
Shan Yu views the Emperor of China having built The Great Wall as both an insult and a challenge. As a violent Blood Knight, Shan Yu leads his horde of Huns to invade, relishing when China knows he's there. After capturing two Imperial spies, Shan Yu releases them with a message for the Emperor—but has one of his archers kill one anyways as you only need one man to deliver a message. Shan Yu later ambushes the armies of General Li at a village, resulting in a mass slaughter, not only of the soldiers, but every civilian as well, with no children spared either. Even after his army's downfall, Shan Yu attacks the Imperial Palace with his remaining men and takes the Emperor hostage, furiously trying to kill him when he refuses to kneel to Shan Yu.
That's three actions that are supposed to qualify him - burning down a civillian village, killing a messanger from the Chinese army, and trying to kill the Emperor and all the protagonists in the climax. The third one can be discounted right away - the vast majority of villains in series with action attempt to kill the protagonists (especially since the protagonists were also trying to kill him), and has been said in this thread before that is not a Complete Monster qualification. The other two...yeah, don't get me wrong, killing a nameless Mook from the Chinese Army and burning down a village are bad, but it's wartime in ancient history - all warlords and rulers did that and worse. None of the characters comment on either of these actions as if they are especially unheard of or disgusting (Mulan and the good guys are horrified when they see the destroyed village but no one says anything implying the Huns have done something completely crossing the line or unusual for a war). Those two actions certainly make Shan Yu cross the Moral Event Horizon but they don't make him a Complete Monster.
Finally, I realize the main qualifier for Shan Yu is that he is in a kids Disney movie, and thus what would be normal Evil Overlord stuff seems far worse in a Disney film. But a) again, we have a trope for that and it's called Knight of Cerebus, and b) even compared to the other Disney villains on the page, he doesn't meet the standard. Frollo and the Horned King attempt genocide. Dr. Faciller tries to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of people to demons. The Coachman turns hundreds of little kids into mute slaves. Scar kills his brother, attempts to kill his nephew, and is perfectly fine with letting his entire kingdom starve to death just because he doesn't feel like giving them food.
Shan Yu is just your generic, standard fantasy Evil Overlord in both actions and motivations and doesn't cut it for Complete Monster, I think he should be cut.
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 6th 2020 at 11:35:35 AM
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Shan Yu is not going anywhere. He massacred an entire village and knew full well there would be children there too. Not to mention was even thrilled by the idea.
@mir jackie answered you by the way. Also, since Dry Eye is part of Lord George's organization, he's guilty of Laura's death too. So that's two deaths on his hands, including his uncle, while his uncle can only be also held to Laura's and on his own ordering (unsuccessfully) for Phuc (haha) to kill Dry Eye.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 6th 2020 at 11:41:24 AM
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According to my search Shan Yu was discussed near when this thread was created in 2012, so almost 8 years ago. Is the policy that when someone is discussed they literally can never be brought up again, even almost a decade later? Because I think that's somewhat ridiculous.
Burning the village is certainly a Moral Event Horizon, but you can cross the MEH without being a Complete Monster. I still don't see how he meets the henious standard and he has no defined motivation whatsoever.
I agree that burning down the village is horrible, and the taunting certainly makes that a clear crossing of the MEH, but it's still one single horrible action. Many villains blatantly cross the MEH without being a Complete Monster because they are still lacking one of the CM criteria, and Shan Yu has both no given motivation whatsoever and is only in the movie for about 10 minutes so he gets almost no scenes to see if he qualifies beyond that one Moral Event Horizon.
The whole invasion of China is also pettily based on seeing the Great Wall going up as a challenge. The fact that it's not a good reason AND out of pure jealously and the overall desire to just start a fight for whatever reason makes it all the more egregious.
There's also killing a messenger just for the hell of it too (there were two and he only needed one).
I've said my peace. I'll leave it to the others.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 7th 2020 at 5:05:02 AM

to Darius
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff