During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yes to General Daib...
I need to read this book right now.
@Lightysnake Is it good?
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)@username: As I said earlier, both villains genuinely love each other, and one has a Heel–Face Turn in the end.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Plus it's arguable if they even pass the heinous standard. It's been awhile since I saw the first two, and apparently Tapia has loved ones, but Fouchet seems worse.
- The first movie gives us French drug dealing gangster Fouchet, who never had pity for anyone and orchestrated several murders pretty unnecessary. He masterminds the theft of millions of dollars worth of heroin from a police station evidence lock up. To that end, he has one of his men dress up as a police officer, and then kills him in order to create a distraction. He makes off with the drugs, which he plans to sell in four days. When Eddie, who helped him set the heist up, decides to party with some hookers and a tiny portion of the stash, Fouchet kills Eddie and Max (one of the hookers), then tries to kill Julie (Max's roommate). He sends one of his men to hack Max's madame to death with an axe, kidnaps Julie for use as leverage, tries to kill Mike and Marcus (our cops) several times over, kills his chemistry team for "fucking with my schedule", and murders his buyer when the police interrupt the deal. His last act is to try and force Mike to kill him, and when that fails, to pull out a hidden pistol and try to kill Mike.
Honestly, that's not the best-written entry, and could probably be cut to "he kills anyone in his way, including his own men".
EDIT: Also, "orchestrated several murders pretty unnecessary"? Oy.
Edited by ACW on Jan 31st 2020 at 5:52:56 AM
Here's my attempt at a rewrite :
Fouchet is a ruthless French drug dealing gangster. Masterminding the theft of millions of dollars worth of heroin from a police station evidence lock up, Fouchet kills one of his own men dressed up as a police officer in order to create a distraction. When Eddie, who helped him set the heist up, decides to party with some hookers and a tiny portion of the stash, Fouchet kills him and one of the hookers, Max. Attempting to kill Max's roommate, Julie, Fouchet also sent one of his men to hack Max's madame to death with an axe, kidnaps Julie for use as leverage, tries to kill Mike and Marcus several times over, kills his chemistry team for "fucking with my schedule", and murders his buyer when the police interrupt the deal. When he fails to force Mike to kill him, Fouchet pulls out a hidden pistol and attempts to kill him.
I seriously doubt it's good, but what do you think?
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Mind if I tinker a little more?
- Bad Boys: Fouchet is a ruthless drug dealer and gangster who steals millions of dollars worth of heroin from a police evidence locker by killing one of his own men whom he had dress as an officer as a distraction. When one of his contacts uses a portion of the stash to party with prostitutes, Fouchet has both the man and one of the women killed out of irritation. Making many attempts on the lives of Marcus Burnett and Mike Lowrey and those close to them, Fouchet also has his chemistry team killed for delaying his schedule. When finally caught by the protagonists, Fouchet tries to force Mike to kill him, before making one final attempt on Mike's life out of spite when he fails.
Edited by 43110 on Jan 31st 2020 at 8:24:03 AM
I have something I forgot to say in my newest effort post.
In a flashback, Jestor's son expressed concern for him when he was dying. But if Even Evil Can Be Loved is not mitigating, I don't see why this should disqualify him. Thoughts?
I found, deleted, and left an edit note on this unapproved entry from Superbook (2011). It was not on the main Western Animation page so I knew it was unapproved.
- Herodias is the vindictive and manipulative spouse of Herod, who's angry at John the Baptist because he openly speaks out against the unlawfulness of their marriage (Herodias having been married to Herod's brother beforehand). So what does she do? She directs her daughter to seductively dance before Herod while he's drunk, and then to ask for John's head to be cut off. She then gives Herod a smug look even as he glares at her, knowing that he can't do anything about it or go back on the word he's just given to her daughter or else he'll risk dishonoring himself in front of his guests. And the worst part of it all is, Herodias suffers no punishment for it.
Hansel and Gretel, Lavoe, Soulcollector and Daib
Here's a proposed quote from a new favorite CM of mine.
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - GiselleAfter reading the original Devilman manga, can i get permission to rewrite Jinmen entry?
First off i want to delete a line that depicts his crime from Devilman Grimoire, as it is completely different universe in that manga (sort of a reboot), then i want to include him slaughtering a train full of people, some of which he added to his shell.
So some years ago, Austin brought up The Woman by Jack Ketchum, a book and movie of a feral animalistic woman being taken in by a rural suburban family to "civilize" her. As it turns out the father of the family is an incesteous rapist who dehumanizes women. After the slaughter all but the three daughters of the family, the Woman takes the girls as her adoptive daughters in the wilderness.
Recently a movie came out that was a sequel to the 2011 film, but not based on any book. Film/Darlin picks up years later, where we follow the titular Darlin - the youngest daughter of the Cleek family who is now a teenager. Over the course of the movie we discover that in between films, Peggy, the oldest daughter who was forcibly impregnated by her father, died giving birth to a stillborn baby; Sockets, the blind daughter Chris dehumanized into mad dog like behaviour ? Ran away to die. Which leaves us with the Woman and Darlin. Shortly before the film, Darlin gets a boyfriend in the form of a lost and wounded hiker named Mike, who she ends up having sex with before he died of his injuries. As we discover, Darlin has become pregnant from this, and the Woman sent her into the city to have the baby in saftey. Darlin ends up in the hands of a group that wants to civilize her, like Chris Cleek before her, and the Woman goes about the city trying to find her "daughter".
So what do I bring to the table ? Well I think the villain of this film might have a shot, and to make a case of Chris Cleek still counting. So onto the film's villain, the unnamed Bishop.
Who is the Bishop ? What does he do ?
A small time but ambitious Catholic minister, who arrives at the hospital to see Darlin' and take her into his care. Like Chris Cleek, he wants to civilize this feral girl, due to running a reform school/home for delinquent girls. You can probably guess where this is going. Anyways the reason why he wants to "help" Darlin is because his reform school is about to be shut down and he's been getting a lack of funds. With a feral girl he "saved" to exploit, he can avoid being shut down. Now at first, he doesn't do much as a villain, although his assistant nun, Sister Jenny, is one of the few people who successfully reach out to Darlin (along with a girl named Billy she befriended). It's pretty clear that Catholic teachings on original sin and the devil are doing damage to Darlin's mind, as she's now under the impression her baby is the devil due to her cannibalistic history, and how childbirth lead to the traumatic deaths of her sisters. The worse thing the Bishop deliberately does is provoke Darlin into a violent rage to film on camera...at first.
So you know how the Bishop runs a reform home for delinquent girls ? Yeah, he's a serial pedophile/ephenophile who frequently preys on the girls in his home. The first instance we see of this is when Billy is dragged into his office for disrupting class, panicking at the prospect of being "disciplined" by him screaming "No! Please! Don't take me to him!" implying that the Bishop uses rape as a form of punishment. Sister Jennifer, as we find out she was a former student of his from her past as a young junkie, and she was raped and groomed into who she was now. Jennifer is still a nice and timid woman, all things considered and too scared to confront the Bishop, despite knowing what he's doing. Then comes the time where the Bishop takes Darlin to his office with the intent on seducing/raping her...only to turn her out in disgust at upon seeing she's pregnant. When word of Darlin's pregnancy spread, Jennifer finally confronts the Bishop about abusing her and the other girl (even though he's not guilty of Darlin's pregnancy, but that's beside the point). The Bishop tries to manipulate her and chastinize her for not forgiving him, before threatening to excommunicate her if she tells anyone.. We also learn that the reason why the church wants to shut down the reform house is because rumours of the Bishops crimes are spreading.
So where's the feral Woman in all this ? She ends up staying under an overpass with a group of homeless prostitutes, some of whom claim to have daughters in the reform school, and when they find out the Woman's "daughter" was taken too, they decide to revolt. The Bishop hosts a First Communion, where after Darlin unsuccessfully tried to induce a miscarriage, The Bishop presents her to the crowd as the miracle child he saved. Jenny reveals she has a recording of his rape confession and plays it for the Church to hear. At that point the Woman arrives and stabs the Bishop to death with a flagpole, and Darlin goes into labor. The film's ends on a fairly rushed and barely conclusive point where Darlin has a healthy baby successfully, and entrusts the child to the Woman, while Darlin herself seems to stay behind.
The end.
Mitigating Factors ?
As far as redeeming qualities or Freudian Excuse goes ? He wants to exploit saving a feral child, not out of concern for her well being, but to keep the church from shutting his school/home down. It turns out they are planning to shut him down because they are investigating his serial pedophilia, something he not only feels no remorse over, but continues to openly practice for the duration of the film. He just wants the church to fund his house so he can go back to raping little girls in peace. Not only that, but when Jennifer confronts him, he tells her that she is in the wrong for not forgiving him, tells her she should be grateful for what he did and threatens to exile her if she tells anyone. He tells Jennifer that if anyone is going to take the virginity of the girls in his care, it should be a man of God, and a direct descendant of the apostles as he claims to be.
He may have one moment that may be either Even Evil Has Standards or Everyone Has Standards but he seems disgusted over Darlin's past as a feral cannibal; when she confesses her last to him, he's mortified to the point of nearly throwing up. They don't convey it as a moral standard, or clarify if it just made him sick. That is one or two things that make things murky.
The other one is the Woman has more of a bodycount in this film than the previous one. And it's not just victimizers either - besides the Bisop, the other notable Asshole Victim is this random john who tries to rape one of the prostitutes - her previous mitigating factors still stand (she still loves her "adoptive daughters", is still near animalistic, etc). The problem is she kills several people over the course of the film - two actually have it coming, but the others where just unfortunate randos that happened to be in the way, including a cop, a junkie homeless man, a doctor, clown and reporter. I kind of feel like in any other movie the Bishop could count, but we have someone who does stuff like the Woman here, which could complicate things. They also establish how the Woman disposes of the dead of her family...she eats them.
Like, I'm literally wondering how to judge what is worse between cannibalism and pedophilia ? Because even with the above, at the end of the day, the Bishop is still a serial child molester, even if the Woman is still a cannibal.
Does Chris Cleek still keep ?
He...should. This movie is kind of a stand alone thing, and unlike the previous film, isn't based on any books Jack Ketchum wrote. This film was created, directed and written by Pollyanna Mackintosh as a tribute to Ketchum. In short, while this so a follow up to the movie, I doubt it's canon to the book.
Even so, Cleek still has a unique niche in torturing and physically abusing a captive Woman, repeatedly raping his one daughter and reducing his other daughter into another animalistic cannibalistic woman because she was born with no eyes. With Cleek what he lacks in quantity in comparison to the Bishop, he more than makes up for in quality.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling.""Like, I'm literally wondering how to judge what is worse between cannibalism and pedophilia ? Because even with the above, at the end of the day, the Bishop is still a serial child molester, even if the Woman is still a cannibal."
There's no "worse" there IMO, both are uniquely fucked in there own ways.
to Bishop

How come no one in Bad Boys For Life count? Haven't seen it just asking.