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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#200102: Jan 29th 2020 at 9:16:42 PM

[tup] Engel and Xu. Still need to watch this series one of these days.

It's Spooky Month!
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#200103: Jan 29th 2020 at 9:17:02 PM

Alright folks, it’s officially January 30th, so it’s time to discuss the latest game in the Dragon Ball series: Dragon Ball Z Kakarot. The game is an open world action RPG that is a 30 hour epic retailing of all 4 sagas (No we do not count the Garlic Jr Saga, which is nonexistent in the game), with some new material added, such as Gohan and Android 16 getting a bonding moment, which is nice. But of course, we’re not here to talk about the game itself, which I loved personally, we’re here to discuss any potential keepers in this latest addition to the DBZ franchise, so let’s begin shall we?

First off, all of the major C Ms in Dragon Ball Z, which are Frieza, Cell, Babidi, and Super Buu, retain their original roles and actions from the anime, such as Frieza’s ruthless genocide on planet Namek, Cell absorbing Androids 17 and 18, Babidi ordering Majin Buu to kill humans until Piccolo, Trunks, and Goten show themselves, and Super Buu being an Omnicidal Maniac. Do they get any new vile acts in the game besides that... No, I’m afraid not. The game has new material, but all 4 C Ms are pretty much the same as their anime counterparts. You can revive Frieza, Cell, Babidi, and Kid Buu in the post game for a rematch against them, or in Goku’s perspective, to train with them. But they don’t do anything villainous other than fight against Goku in an attempt to get revenge for their deaths, and after being defeated they aren’t seen again though Goku does spare Frieza, Cell, and Babidi, though they make it clear that they are not redeeming themselves at all. In Kid Buu’s case though, his revival was a brought back for a day treatment that Goku got in the Buu saga, and when defeated Kid Buu, in his own way, express excitement in fighting Goku again, and was a bit sad at having to leave after the fight, he then returns to the afterlife and is said to later be reincarnated as Uub, like in the anime. So yeah, no need for entires here for these guys.

As for the other villains, they can also be revived and fought by Goku and his friends, and like the 3 C Ms and Kid Buu above, they don’t die upon defeat in the rematches. Raditz, once defeated by Piccolo for a second time, is invited by Piccolo to train with him for a future rematch which Raditz gladly accepts. Nappa decides to train with Gohan after being defeated by half Saiyan in the rematch, though he hopes for a future rematch. King Cold avoids fighting Gohan after his henchman are defeated, though he does adopt Gohan as his new “son”... Yeah, you all read that right. Gohan basically forces Dodoria and Zarbon to make Heel Face Turns by beating the crap out of them. The Ginyu Force, still being the.... Ginyu Force, offers Gohan a spot in Ginyu’s absence. Captain Ginyu is restored to his original body by Vegeta so the Saiyan prince can fight against him, and afterwards Vegeta convinces Ginyu to do his own training instead of stealing bodies. Cui basically becomes Vegeta’s “punching bag” to Cui’s unfortunate luck. Appule tried to take over the Frieza Force after Frieza’s death, but Gohan forces him to change his evil ways. Babidi’s henchmen may have Heel Face Turns as well, with two of them bailing instead of facing Gohan and risk death again, and the other look like to have befriended Goku, to Babidi’s dismay. And then there’s Dabura, who had a Heel–Face Turn, and had originally declined Goku’s offer for a fight due to being a pacifist, but ends up agreeing after Goku offers him money for charity work. Dabura does get bloodthirsty for a moment but quickly snaps out of it and apologizes, before acting like his reformed self again.

Of course, they’re not the only villains in the game. The game also feature villains from other DBZ games. First, there is Android 21, but she doesn’t do anything villainous at all throughout the game, and creates an training simulator for our heroes, which also allows them to fight against former Ginyu Force member, Bonyu. And then there’s Towa and Mira from the Xenoverse games. From the looks of it, Kakarot seems to take place between Xenoverses 1 and 2, as Towa’s goal is to revive Mira by making Goku and his friends fight stronger versions of themselves and their enemies to give Mira enough energy to be resurrected. Upon his revival, Mira proceeds to fight our heroes, but is eventually defeated, to which Towa concludes that Mira isn’t exactly complete and decides to head to another timeline to get more energy for Mira, while also leaving behind even stronger enemies for Goku and his friends to fight. Like in the Xenoverse games, the duo still don’t count, though Towa would most certainly would if it weren’t for her genuine love for Mira, and Mira is still loyal to Towa. Honestly, I’m glad to see these two in the game, they are VERY underrated villains.

In conclusion, besides the already listed 4 C Ms from the anime, no one counts, but Kakarot was an amazing experience nonetheless, and I’m glad I got to talk about an installment from the legendary DBZ series. (And Evolution doesn’t count because that film doesn’t DESERVE to be apart of dragon ball franchise)

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#200104: Jan 29th 2020 at 9:49:22 PM

Yes to Xu and Engel. I'm surprised he wasn't discussed sooner as he doesn't need Ozai's resources. Maybe we just deemed him insufficiently heinous when compared to Ozai who had more resources and Zhao.

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#200106: Jan 29th 2020 at 10:11:01 PM

[up][up] More likely it's because the book was released a paltry six months ago and nobody seems to be talking about it overmuch.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#200107: Jan 29th 2020 at 10:59:45 PM

[tup] to Engel and Xu. So Xu is arguably the first CM in the Avatarverse that isn't a Big Bad.

Any who here are my write-ups for the Ultraviolet trio:

  • Ultraviolet (2017)
    • Krzysztof "Elias" Górski, from season 1's "#elias" is the leader of a Breeding Cult containing girls, much of whom were kidnapped as children by Elias, who he imprisoned in his farm to rape and brainwash for years; One of those girls was Maja Braska who Elias kept as his sex slave for twenty years. When a reporter, Szostak, tried to learn about Maja's whereabouts, Elias kills him when Szostak freed one of Elias' victims.
    • "Limbo", from season 1's "#limbo" is a nurse who looks for people on the internet and manipulates them to commit suicide while she video them doing so before posting them on the dark web as entertainment for her viewers. Limbo has them killed in pair, with one pair drowning themselves, another pair shooting themselves, another pair hanging themselves, and another pair injecting themselves with lethal drugs. She also tries to have one pair burn themselves alive, only for her to attempt to burn them herself when they refuse to do so.
    • Lukasz Rolak is the infamous "Hycel", a sadistic serial killer who has kidnapped and raped numerous men before hunting them down in a forest where he would then decapitate their heads. When one of his victims managed to escape, Rolak would frame Zenon Nowak, an innocent man, for the murder while Rolak would get away with his. When Rolak learns that Ultraviolet has proven Nowak's innocence 20 years later, Rolak goes on a killing spree once more and tries to kill Ola Serafin by slicing her throat before stabbing Michał Holender when he tries to save her.

Edited by G-Editor on Jan 29th 2020 at 9:00:51 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#200108: Jan 29th 2020 at 11:16:46 PM

Based on the EP, [tup] to Xu.

Also, definite [tup] to the Bellatrix quote.

Enjoy your vacation Bullman.

Happy 8000th page everyone.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 29th 2020 at 11:17:39 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200110: Jan 30th 2020 at 2:31:28 AM

Yes to Scraggle's duo and the quote.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#200112: Jan 30th 2020 at 3:42:44 AM

[tup] to Major Wolfram Engel and Xu Ping An.

captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#200113: Jan 30th 2020 at 4:13:40 AM

[tup] Bellatrix quote

[tup] Engel and Xu

Edit: did we discuss where Vex from Oxventure was going to be filed under? I thought it would be Web Original but I could be wrong.

Edited by captainmarkle on Jan 30th 2020 at 12:20:17 PM

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#200115: Jan 30th 2020 at 4:45:24 AM

[tup] Xu. Man, as dark as Avatar can get, I never thought something like this would have ever been made.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#200116: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:25:53 AM

So, thanks to the magic of comixology, here we go....man, the Grimmverse is a delightful one. Now...The Piper.

Who is the Piper?

Once a young musician who washed up on distant shores, the Piper's real name is long unknown. He was mentored by a kind snake charmer who taught him the way of the flure and some of his power, but the Piper was unsatisfied with the steady progress he made. He was then approached by the Dark One who made a new pact with him, offering him a magic flute, and darker powers. The Piper murdered his mentor by having a snake strike him and escaped.

Returning to Europe, he fell in love with a well-off young woman in one village. When they became lovers, her father discovered them together and the Piper was assaulted, brutalized and left for dead. Succumbing to hatred, he murdered everyone there, and when his lover begged him to stop and remember their feelings, he decided love was no longer what he was interested in, impaling her with his flute. Giving in to hate, he became stronger, embracing it and turning his back on goodness forever.

The Piper would proceed to make deals, ranging from favors to eliminating others, for coin or for souls...then he came to Hamelin, a town plagued by rats. They hired him to get rid of the rats and using his flute, he hypnotized them and drew them away to exterminate them. Then the town elder decided to cheat him and paid him a pittance. In retribution? The Piper hypnotized all the children of Hamelin and drew them away, informing the village that "their search ends where your broken promises begin," leaving them to discover their dead children in the water. Enraged, the townsfolk attacked the Piper, shoving his flute down his throat and drowning him.

Except he didn't truly die. Returning as an undead monster whose story is written within an ancient book, the Piper becomes a sort of tempter for souls. Summoned by those who desire vengeance, the Piper will murder them (and any collateral) in gruesome, horrific ways, taking the souls of his victims...before taking the soul of the summoner, even if they don't intend to actually get this going, with the Piper claiming he just listens to their subconscious desires. In the limited series The Piper,, a young musician named Sean who's bullied at school accidentally calls the Piper, who proceeds to carve a bloody swath through the bullies there...having some eaten by spiders, a security guard who gets too close is torn apart by alligators, some eaten by rats or crabs, and the Piper happily reaps their souls, with the intent to take Sean's. When Sean tries to stop the bargain, the Piper turns on him to kill him and the others. Using the secrets of the book, Sean fights back but the Piper brainwashes one of the bullies to fulfill the contract and kills him when his use has expired. The Piper is defeated by Sean playing his signature tune in reverse and later, with his girlfriend, seeks to banish the Piper for good by playing it at Hamelin.

Except the Piper had left this little 'secret' as a contingency should he ever be defeated and it actually revives him. Sean and girlfriend are drowned by the corpses of the children the Piper murdered and the Piper ends the mini wholly victorious. Next seen in the Dream Eater crossover, the Piper attacks a doctor and his wife and child, having them eaten by rats...the summoner is a broken old man who reacted hastily when his wife was hit by a drunk driver and the doctor failed to save her. The Piper, of course, simply acted, killed the guy and his entire family (and the driver) and takes the man's soul before the Dream Eater (a being who devours the supernatural) arrives, puts the man's soul back and tries to eat the Piper who barely escapes.

Now, the Piper mostly fades to the background after he escapes, even with Malec's death, but he recently resurfaces in the 2016 series when heroine Sela Mathers is dead and her daughter Skye takes over her role. The Piper has gone entirely mercenary and is serving a twisted old man for gold...a rash of disappearances of children show that the Piper is abducted them for either the sex trade or for darker tastes with eldritch beings, uncaring as long as he gets the gold. Skye and her ally, Robyn Hood, track them down, save the kids and kill the Piper's employer, but the Piper slips away at the end and is still on the loose.

Mitigating Qualities?

I was worried for heinousness, but the Piper is a relatively low placement in the Grimm-verse who manages to do a lot even so. He makes his deaths as vicious as possible and it's not a case of Be Careful What You Wish For because he has a bad, bad habit of just assuming that to create a bargain regardless, and is pretty damn liberal with collateral damage, even children. And the whole 'reaping souls' that he does with all his victims...and then he's just flat out selling kids to be trafficked for the cash.

And oh yeah, starting his career by murdering a town full of little kids because he got stiffed on a bill. Okay, maybe he has a bit of a right to be annoyed, but can we say "disproportionate retribution" much?

As for redeeming features...yes, he did legit fall in love at one point. And then after being beaten for it, he realized hate was stronger, gave into it, never looked back and murdered his lover, saying "There is no love. There is only this." Inclined to say he threw that away.

Conclusion?

Pay the Piper indeed.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200117: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:32:01 AM

Sure to the Piper. Before or after Lucinda (I assume those two will go under a general grouping)?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#200118: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:34:56 AM

[tup]pied piper

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#200119: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:37:43 AM

[tup]Xu and Piper

How many Pipers we now have?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 30th 2020 at 5:41:01 PM

AlmightyKingPrawn I can chase the wind, I can race the rain from Down at Fraggle Rock *clap clap* Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
I can chase the wind, I can race the rain
#200120: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:38:18 AM

[tup] Xu and Piper

She/her. Profile pic is by Richard Michael Gomez @StarmansArt. Please watch Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. https://youtu.be/Vm92JNgPbqk
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#200121: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:45:13 AM

The Piper...probably before. He well predates her in chronology.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#200122: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:47:11 AM

Cool. Once those 2 are written up, I'll reformat the page and you can look over before I swap it.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#200124: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:49:09 AM

[tup] to Xu and the Piper

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary

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