During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yes to the Ultraviolet trio, too...have one other GFT for right now: Drake Liddle from the Wonderland series.
What's the work?
Part of the Grimm universe, namely the Wonderland spinoff...there exists a realm of horrible madness, known by many names: Limbo, R'yleh...Wonderland. A place that was once a realm of dreams, corrupted by the nightmare of the Jabberwocky. Wonderland exists apart from the earth realm, but seeks to break in...for a long time, supposedly sacrifices were given to Wonderland to keep it satiated. In the 1800s, a man named Charles Dodgson formed a cult dedicated to Wonderland, ostensibly aimed at providing a child a generation to be given to it...
All a lie. Charles is not an opponent of Wonderland, he's its servant, making a pact for youth, wealth and power. Charles survives until the modern day as such, even when the cult is largely destroyed by a father who refuses to allow them to take his son, all the sacrifices allowing the Jabberwocky little connections to the world. Without any other sacrifices....Charles used his own daughter. His son, Howard Phillips, fled the family with his own, but Charles rigged his car so an accident resulted in Charles catching them. Howard was convicted of murder and Charles raised his son and daughter as Charles' own...under the name Liddle...until he gave Alice to Wonderland.
Part of Alice returned, most of her remaining in Wonderland after she defeated the Jabberwocky. Her normal self had terrible mental issues, but eventually married a man named Lewis and had two kids, Johnny and Carol "Calie" Ann.
....now, you might think we're discussing Charles Dodgson, a serial murderer and purveyor of child sacrifice for centuries, but he's not even close to being a CM. No, we'll be discussing his 'son' Drake.
Who is Drake?
Drake, raised alongside Alice as the children of Charles and never suspecting his true nature or identity, is a hero. A firefighter, a pillar of the community, a loving husband, a Cool Uncle extraordinaire who takes his nephew Johnny on regular fishing trips. In reality, all this is a lie. Drake is a twisted sociopath whose 'fishing trips' are to molest Johnny. Raping him, ever since he was a little boy, Drake leaves Johnny with horrendous mental issues and says if Johnny ever tells anyone about it, mommy and daddy will never love him again. This continues for years, with nobody suspecting anything, not even Calie who is Johnny's beloved rock in the world, as Johnny is too terrified to tell anyone.
Charles, however, is waiting to pick Johnny up and notices something wrong. When Charles begins suspecting something is very, very wrong with Johnny, he gets him to talk about it and learns what Drake has done. A furious Charles confronts Drake, saying he made a mistake to send Alice and not him to Wonderland and throws him through the magic mirror....Drake is set upon by the madness and taken by it, tortured and given to the Wonderland tea party led by the March Hare where he is instructed to hunt down a runaway in Wonderland named 'Lacie.'
Searching for months without any avail, Drake eventually succumbs to Wonderland and embraces its madness, taking on the identity of the Mad Hatter...and finds Lacie, the mental remnant of his own sister, who he delivers to the Tea Party, where he gleefully takes over and becomes a devoted substitute to Wonderland. As the Hatter, Drake is a savage and sadistic killer, capturing victims and torturing them, eventually taking their skins to wear himself and also being a rapist. When seen in the original Return to Wonderland, when Calie falls through the mirror, she ends up in his house where he serves her drugged tea and attempts to rape her himself...Calie gets free and brutalizes him into a bloody husk, leaving him shattered, though he eventually heals.
Now...Alice herself, to protect Calie, tries to offer her life as a sacrifice in suicide to stop Wonderland. Johnny, blaming their father (he was cheating on her with a prostitute) murders him, and Calie, shattered by everything, pushes Johnny into Wonderland, beleiving that it must have a sacrifice thanks to Charles lying to her.
Johnny is abducted by Drake who reveals he is holding Lacie captive there, where he makes clear his intent to rape them both, reminding Johnny of the old 'Fishing trips.' To mold Johnny into Wonderland's Dark Messiah, he allows Johnny to slip his bonds and seize a magic knife from the table, the only thing that can permakill Wonderland's denizens...Drake allows Johnny to Mercy Kill Lacie/Alice and gloats over it, convinced that he's bulletproof and Johnny is malleable now.
...and Johnny shows he's far more dangerous than Drake realized, turning on his uncle and brutally slaughtering him with the knife, before claiming the mantle of Mad Hatter for himself.
Mitigating Qualities?
Drake presents as a loving husband and hero, but he's a sadistic pedophile who brutally rapes his nephew for a long while, repeatedly...even in Grimm, this is bad, and it's made clear that as the Hatter, Drake is an atrocious, serial killing, serial rapist monster who views his sister and niece and nephew as something to molest and torture.
Wonderland can twist you (badly), but while Drake's conversion is painful, like Johnny, we see that the Hatter is capable of holding on to their personality and there's choice and agency involved. Now, Johnny is a mass murderer, a sadistic serial killer who slaughters dozens of people and tries to open the gates to the apocalypse for Wonderland, even offering his baby niece as a gateway to the Jabberwocky...but most of Wonderland's denizens are tragic monsters, people twisted into insanity, some of whom still hold to hope they can one day escape the Jabberwocky. Drake? Never looks back, becoming the most evil and monstrous being he can possibly be.
You might have guessed, but Charles himself is positively revolted by Drake's proclivities on a moral level, and while he's a monster, eventually the guilt of what he's done becomes too much and he later gives his life to stop the Jabberwocky. Drake would happily see the world burn, and his attempt to corrupt Johnny is to that end (he's way less proactive than Johnny about it due to when they have the Hatter mantle, admittedly)
If anyone is wondering, as horrible as Johnny becomes, who dies wholly unredeemed and later becomes a monstrous ghost...I can never support him as a CM. Johnny is evil but wholly tragic.
Conclusion?
I'd say Drake is a keeper. Being a rapist pedophile? Is pretty rare in Grimm and as the Hatter proper, he's still a serial killing rapist.
to Drake / Mad Hatter.
Scrapped a draft EP for Oxventure as I realised M. Channail is too Laughably Evil for this, if nothing else because he's a bit too incompetent as a druid. Lord Milquetoast also fails the heinous standard for now. I've started another one for Lady Liliana, that should hopefully be good to go by next week.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.Am I forgetting anything (beside's Lighty's)?
- Messenger, by Edward Lee: Aldezhor (MetaBuu)
- I Spy (film) trio (Mimic)
- Carolyn Williams (Mir)
- Crom Cruach (Mir)
- Uncanny, by David Macinnis Gill: Malleus (Mir)
- Johnny Sokko and His Flying Robot (Pure)
- Achtung! Cthulhu: Engel (Scraggle) (eventually)
Edited by ACW on Jan 29th 2020 at 4:11:12 AM
Yes to Grimm Drake/Mad Hatter. Grimm's fairy tales are fucked up. There ought to be a page for them as I think we already have 6 or 7 others.
Remember when we thought G4 of MLP would never have a complete monster and we got Cosmos? Granted she was from the comics but still.
As for Complete Monster in a sitcom, the problem with that is everyone in a sitcom is often played for laughs and a lot of sitcoms have a ridiculous heinous standard. I think Beverley Hoffstander was taken down due to the show not being serious enough and her being legit nice to Sheldon. I think if we had a sitcom about Those Wacky Nazis, only have the character actually shown gassing Jewish people without a laugh track that might work. But a show like that would thrive on Black Comedy and they probably wouldn't be taken serious enough like a certain character from an Adult Cartoon that shall remain nameless.
Edited by Klavice on Jan 29th 2020 at 2:06:08 AM

Sure go ahead.
Isn't it just a redo of the z saga though. I thought the four villains from their are already up.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."