During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to Hyde and Dracula
Last thing I will say on Vizsla, is simply that his supposed honor/standards regarding his acceptance of his death seems extremely debatable given how it actively goes against his character in every other aspect.
He gives Obi-Wan Kenobi a one-on-one fight, but then cheats to win.
He gives his word he will spare the village, but then massacres it For the Evulz.
He is explicitly shown to be hesitant to accept Maul's challenge, and only does so when he glances around and realizes his men are watching.
And one last thing to note: When he is being beaten by Maul, Vizsla has a notable moment where he's crawling away from Maul, gasping pathetically and frantically looking terrified, but he looks up and sees all of his soldiers glaring down at him, and it is only after this that he calms down, clenches his teeth and brings up the "Only the strongest will rule" quote.
I think there is more evidence to support his final moments being faked to preserve dignity than there is to support it being based around legitimate honor, but that is just me, and that is likely my last word on it.
Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Jan 27th 2020 at 7:11:39 AM
And the last ER one, a minor recurring character who went completely over the edge in their final two appearances.
Steve Curtis from ER
The Show: To paraphrase the page here: A long-running Medical Drama that redefined the genre. It was the first to show graphically realistic emergency procedures and reproduce the disorganized clutter of a real metropolitan hospital. Set in Cook County General Hospital, the show followed an ever-changing, ethnically diverse cast of doctors, nurses, administrators and medical students as they deal with the day-to-day angst of saving lives. Their personal lives took a back seat to taut scenes of trying to help patients with their various physical and emotional emergencies. The main character arc was that of John Carter (Noah Wyle) who evolved throughout the course of the show from an uncertain medical student to the wise and infinitely capable chief resident.
Who They Are: Steve was a 23 year-old, working construction and in a band, when he met a 15 year-old ice cream server named Samantha Taggart. The two were Sickening Sweethearts up until Sam got pregnant, at which point Steve's true colors as a controlling, alcoholic pothead slacker deadbeat were revealed, his unreliability meaning that Sam had to raise their son, Alex, mostly on her own. Steve would periodically re-insert himself into Sam and Alex's lives, though he always ended up disappearing again after a while; that, or Sam would run away from him. Sam eventually ends up in Chicago, having gotten a job as a nurse at Cook County General Hospital.
What They Do:
- "Where There's Smoke" (S10E18): Steve tracks Sam down to Chicago. He invites himself into her apartment, and plays with Alex while waiting for Sam to come home from a shift at Cook County.
- "Just a Touch" (S1019): Sam ambivalently lets Steve (who appears to be sincere in his attempts to make up for their past) stick around, because of how good he is with Alex. Doctor Luka Kovac gets bitten by a deranged patient, and while treating him, Sam mentions that Steve is back, and that he "does this every now and then" and that he usually "only sticks around long enough to run up my phone bill and drink all my beer." Steve gives Alex a guitar, and unexpectedly takes him to Cook County to visit Sam, where he meets Luka. Sam and Steve have an awkward lunch with Alex, and Steve mentions that he might make a permanent move to Chicago.
- "Midnight" (S10E21): Sam gets more and more flustered by Steve's presence, because he obviously wants to renew their physical relationship, and due to incidents like him jokingly giving a condom to Alex. Steve tries to make things up to Sam by sending sundaes to Cook County. Steve then sets Luka's car alarm off, and vaguely warns Luka to stay away from Sam and Alex while going on about how he has changed for the better, ending the confrontation by saying, "We belong together, Sam, Alex and I. And Sam knows that." Luka's behavior afterward makes Sam suspicious, and later a slightly drunk Steve comes on to her too strongly, which freaks out Sam.
- "Drive" (S10E22): Steve keeps pulling Alex out of school to hang out with him, while also getting high and drunk with his buddies, all the while waiting on a building management job that he thinks having Alex with him at the interview will help him get, to the consternation of Sam. Fed up with Steve, Sam forces a reluctant Alex to pack ("I'm sick of pretending that your dad is a good guy! I'm sick of keeping my mouth shut about all the crap that he's done and all the stuff that he hasn't. And I'm sick of him tracking us down every time he loses a job, so he can come here and buy you enough presents to make you think that he's actually a father. Because he's not! He's a user and a loser, and I am not gonna let him turn you into one too. Now get your ass in that room and start packing!") and together the two flee Chicago.
- "Back in the World" (S11E17): Sam is back in Chicago and going steady with Luka, who has become a kind of surrogate father to Alex. Steve sends Alex a letter saying that he will be visiting Chicago. Steve shows up at Cook County looking for Sam, and while talking with her, he implies that he is now a wanted man before asking for money and Alex. Sam, who is a bit more lenient towards Steve now, gives him money, but refuses to let him just take Alex. Luka finds out that there is a warrant (he robbed a supermarket and assaulted a cashier) out for Steve's arrest in Colorado. Luka tells Sam about Steve's warrant, and goes to check in on Alex. Luka finds Steve looting Sam's apartment, and the two get into a fight when it is revealed that Steve was going to run off to Florida with Alex. Luka convinces Steve not to take Alex.
- "All About Christmas Eve" (S12E10): Steve was arrested, but got a transfer from Colorado to Illinois. When Sam visits him, he once again asserts that he has a changed and found God, and asks to see Alex before admitting that he stole many of the gifts (like the guitar) that he had given Alex, and that they will probably be confiscated by the police, much to the disgust of Sam. Steve is now Alex's Broken Pedestal.
- "No Place to Hide" (S12E19): Steve (who claims to be a Born Again Christian) starts showing signs of appendicitis, and gets sent to Cook County. He recovers quickly, and no one (including Sam) believes that he is really all that sick, with the exception of Doctor Neela Rasgotra. It turns out that Steve actually does have appendicitis, and his life is saved thanks to Neela.
- "21 Guns" (S12E22): Steve concocts an elaborate escape plan with a fellow prisoner named Rafe Hendricks, and his EMT trainee girlfriend Mary Warner. Mary infiltrates Cook County, which Steve is sent to after faking an altercation with Rafe. Mary knocks out Rafe's guard, releases Rafe, and together the two release Steve, knock out his guard, and grab Sam. Luka gets stabbed with a paralyzing agent by Mary and beaten unconscious by Steve. The drug and the beating have left Luka needing to be breathed manually or else he will die, so Steve reluctantly lets Sam treat him, telling Rafe, "You want a murder rap? We're not killers, man." Despite this declaration, Steve helps Rafe shoot up the hospital when things go awry, wounding and possibly killing numerous employees, patients and bystanders, with the wounded including main characters Jerry Markovic (who sustained life-threatening injuries while shielding a child) and Abby Lockhart (who goes into premature labor, and needs a hysterectomy). Steve forces Sam into a van which contains a bound and gagged Alex. As they drive away from the scene, Steve tells Sam that God told him to reunite with her and Alex.
- "Bloodline" (S13E1): The group is driving to Canada, and when they stop to switch vehicles, Steve sends Rafe and Sam out to get Alex something to eat, to quell his diabetes, as he awkwardly tells Alex, "Come on, stand up straight. Be a man. You're not a little kid anymore." A police officer spots the car speeding through a railroad crossing, and gets into a chase with it, only to be rammed off of the road (and possibly killed) by Rafe (not that Steve appears to care, being more worried about the attention that they may have attracted). At a seemingly abandoned farm, Steve argues over what they should do with Rafe and Mary, and then guns them down, afterward acting like nothing happened as he approaches Sam and Alex. After Alex falls asleep, Steve vaguely implies that he'll kill them all if they get separated again ("But now we gotta stay together. The three of us. There's no other way. I'd rather we were all dead") before raping Sam in sight of the sleeping Alex (which prevents Sam from doing anything to try and stop it). When Steve passes out, he is shot to death by Sam.
Heinousness: He wasn't much starting out, being an unreliable deadbeat turned petty criminal, but in his final two appearances he escalates to kidnapper, mass shooter, accomplice killer, and rapist who implies a willingness to murder his ex and their child rather than be separated from them again.
- Sam: You know, Steve, I was gonna ask you what happened to you to turn you into this. Then I realized it was always in the cards from the moment that I met you. You were on your way to becoming exactly what you are right now.
Mitigating Factors: He appeared to have some standards, letting Sam save Luka from dying while insisting that he is not a killer, but that gets thrown out the window when he shoots up the hospital, with things only degenerating from there as he murders Rafe and Mary.
His affection for Sam and Alex eventually became so warped and controlling that he abducted them to try and force them to be a family again, rapes Sam, and insinuates that a murder-suicide would be preferable to being apart again.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
And
for final ER guy. And thus, the Medical Drama genre is graced with a handful of CMs at last.
I think the Alex Cross writeups, including my own, are too long. Let's try this
- Kyle Craig, or The Mastermind, is a former FBI special agent and Alex Cross's Arch-Enemy. A violent individual since childhood, Kyle was responsible for multiple killings even before joining the FBI, including that of his own brother. As the Mastermind, Kyle perpetrates a series of bank robberies followed by murders in Roses Are Red, making sure to dispose of his accomplices, and raping the women he had hired post-mortem. While his partners at the FBI are busy investigating the murderous robbers, Kyle rapes and kills a woman in a home invasion, and then sets his eyes on Alex's girlfriend, committing the same crime with her and mutilating the body afterwards. Kyle calls Alex to inform him about the horrendous death of his girlfriend, just so he could hear his reaction. Realizing in Violets Are Blue that he has been exposed, Kyle attempts to kill Alex's partner and later a woman he had saved from another killer, but is arrested and sent to death row. Assuming the identity of his attorney in Double Cross, Kyle escapes and kills his mother, using her money to travel around the world and murder more people, including the judge who had sentenced him to death. Failing to kill Alex, Kyle returns years later in Cross Fire, this time posing as a FBI agent he had killed who had been assigned to work with Alex. Seeking to hurt Alex's loved ones, Kyle attempts to take his family hostage, and commits suicide upon defeat, dying in confusion to why Alex did not kill him. A merciless Serial Killer with an obsession for female bodies and being Alex's shadow, Kyle was one of the worst criminals Alex had to face in his career.
- Gary Soneji, real name Gary Murphy, is one of Alex Cross's earliest and most personal foes. First appearing in Along Came a Spider, Soneji is a depraved killer who claims to have killed over 200 people, and starts the book by brutally murdering two black families, mutilating the women and even killing an infant. Longing to become the most infamous criminal mastermind in modern history, Soneji duplicates the Lindbergh baby case by abducting two private school children, fully intending on burying them alive while he disappears without a trace. Killing the FBI agent in charge of the case as well as a schoolteacher, Soneji has a breakdown after his plan goes awry, and takes a McDonald's restaurant hostage, killing an innocent man and a cop. Upon his capture, Soneji quickly plans his escape, and once he's free he attempts to murder Alex Cross's family for revenge. Returning once again in Cat and Mouse, Soneji, feeling he has nothing to lose due to contracting AIDS in prison, decides that the whole world deserves to be punished for his misfortunes, and goes on a cross-country killing spree, slaughtering innocent men, women, children, cops, and even his own wife; he leaves his young daughter alive, but tied up in his house's cellar to slowly die of starvation. When confronted by Cross yet again, Soneji takes a bus full of innocent people hostage with a bomb, and abducts a baby to ward off the cops before attempting to beat Cross to death for "ruining his life". A relentless and utterly unstable murderer who longs to top other killers in sheer brutality, Gary Soneji would stop at no limits to feed his pathological need for attention.
- Geoffrey Shafer, known by law enforcement as the Weasel, is one of Cross's most personal enemies. A diplomatic staff member moonlighting as a Serial Killer, Shafer is playing a "game" with a few other men that he meet at the MI6, who style themselves after The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, with Shafer playing the role of Death. He is introduced in Pop Goes the Weasel, when he finds a prostitute and brutally kills her. He then puts on blackface, goes out in a cab, picks up a woman and murders her. He later goes out again, finds a man, and kills him too. Shafer stalks George Bayer, who plays Famine in the "game", murders the women he solicited, and leaves the bodies in a compromising position. Realizing the police are on to him he goes south to Maryland and kills a mother and her teenage daughter. Shafer then targets DC Detective and Cross's love interest Patsy Hampton and brutally kills her. Cross arrests him, but evidence being inadmissible due to diplomatic immunity means he gets acquitted. Shafer then kidnaps Cross's fiancée Christine. He murders the other players of the "game". After a fight with Cross he apparently dies, but resurfaces in Europe and kill his wife. He reappears in London Bridges living in Brazil. Here he continues his murderous hobbies until The Wolf uses a streetwalker to draw him out, kidnap him, and get Shafer to work for him. Shafer bombs an army base, and then meets a sniper and has her kill the CIA Director. He later goes out and kill another prostitute. After that he goes and confronts his sister-in-law and children. He threatens them, asks them for a kiss, and when they refuse he only refrains from killing them because he states that he "does not have permission" to kill them.
Rewrites:
- Kyle Craig, or The Mastermind, is a former FBI special agent and Alex Cross's Arch-Enemy. A violent individual since childhood, Kyle was responsible for multiple killings even before joining the FBI, including that of his own brother. As the Mastermind, Kyle perpetrates a series of bank robberies followed by murders in Roses Are Red, making sure to dispose of his accomplices, and raping the women he had hired post-mortem. With the FBI distracted, Kyle rapes and kills a woman in a home invasion. He then does the same to Alex's girlfriend, mutilating the body afterwards, and calls Alex just so he could hear his reaction. Realizing in Violets Are Blue that he has been exposed, Kyle attempts to kill Alex's partner and later a woman he had saved from another killer, but is arrested and sent to death row. Assuming the identity of his attorney in Double Cross, Kyle escapes and kills his mother, using her money to travel around the world and murder more people, including the judge who had sentenced him to death. Kyle returns years later in Cross Fire, this time posing as a FBI agent he had killed. Seeking to hurt Alex's loved ones, Kyle attempts to take his family hostage, and commits suicide upon defeat, dying in confusion to why Alex did not kill him. A merciless Serial Killer with an obsession for female bodies and being Alex's shadow, Kyle was one of the worst criminals Alex had to face in his career.
- Gary Soneji, real name Gary Murphy, is one of Alex Cross's earliest and most personal foes. First appearing in Along Came a Spider, Soneji is a depraved killer who claims to have killed over 200 people, and starts the book by brutally murdering two black families, mutilating the women and even killing an infant. Longing to become an infamous criminal mastermind, Soneji duplicates the Lindbergh baby case by abducting two private school children to bury alive. Killing the FBI agent in charge of the case as well as a schoolteacher, Soneji has a breakdown, and takes a McDonald's restaurant hostage, killing an innocent man and a cop. Upon his capture, Soneji quickly plans his escape, and once he's free he attempts to murder Alex Cross's family for revenge. Returning once again in Cat and Mouse, Soneji, feeling he has nothing to lose due to contracting AIDS, decides to punish the whole world for his misfortunes. He goes on a cross-country killing spree, slaughtering innocent men, women, children, cops, and even his own wife; he leaves his young daughter tied up in his house's cellar to slowly starve to death. When confronted by Cross yet again, Soneji takes a bus full of innocent people hostage with a bomb, and abducts a baby to ward off the cops before attempting to beat Cross to death for "ruining his life". A relentless and utterly unstable murderer who longs to top other killers in sheer brutality, Gary Soneji would stop at no limits to feed his pathological need for attention.
- Geoffrey Shafer, known by law enforcement as the Weasel, is one of Cross's most personal enemies. A diplomatic staff member moonlighting as a Serial Killer, Shafer is playing a "game" with a few other men that he meet at the MI6, who style themselves after The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, with Shafer playing the role of Death. He is introduced in Pop Goes the Weasel, with the MO of picking prostitute and brutally killing them. His other MO involves going out in a cab and killing his passengers. Shafer stalks George Bayer, aka Famine, murders the women he solicited, and leaves the bodies in a compromising position. Realizing the police are on to him he goes south to Maryland and kills a mother and her teenage daughter. Shafer then targets DC Detective and Cross's love interest Patsy Hampton and brutally kills her. After being acquitted due to diplomatic immunity, Shafer then kidnaps Cross's fiancée Christine. He murders the other players of the "game". After a fight with Cross he apparently dies, but resurfaces in Europe and kill his wife. in London Bridges he reappears in Brazil, where continues his murderous hobbies until The Wolf draw him out with a streetwalker and forces Shafer to work for him. Shafer bombs an army base, and then meets arranges the death of the CIA Director. He later goes out and kill another prostitute. After that he goes and confronts his sister-in-law and children. He threatens them, asks them for a kiss, and when they refuse he only refrains from killing them because he states that he "does not have permission" to kill them.
Also
for Hyde, Dracula and Steve.
Edited by randomtroper89 on Jan 27th 2020 at 11:32:27 AM
Small yes to Steve. Not as bad as the previous candidates but seems distinct enough.
Sure to Hyde & Dracula as well.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jan 27th 2020 at 7:59:18 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Hyde and Drac
@Randomtroper I Love the Dead is potholed twice on Kyle's entry btw.
Viszla, not feeling it.
Abstaining on Vizsla.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Four.
Thought they're might be more, but the terrorists et al in the War on Terror episodes and the Doctors Without Borders ones (which covered conflicts like the ones in Darfur and the Congo) were largely faceless and acted almost exclusively as groups, with even their ostensible leaders not really getting much in the way of characterization that differentiated them from their comrades.
Solid 'Yes' to Harkon, late as it may be. Elder Scrolls standard jacked up as it may be, I think Harkon has just the uniqueness to him to pass. And 'Yes' to Tojiro while I'm at it.
And honestly, I'll throw a stray 'Yes' Vizsla's way. I fully believe he's over the heinous bar, and even taking into account his potentially "redeeming" features, the evidence moreso supports those features being nullified, as does my own memory of his episodes.
Now for my long overdue write-ups...
Here's my remaining write-ups for now:
- The Wolves of War: "The Man with the Iron Heart" Reinhard Heydrich himself is the primary orchestrator and face of the Nazi regime, making his mark as far worse than the likes of his superiors. A stout believer in Aryan supremacy and his own perfection, Heydrich regards all others in the world—namely Jews—as filth needing to be eradicated, and commits mass extermination of them in a variety of ways, from hangings to passing them onto Josef Mengele to be experimented on, notably having any and all captured creatures be tortured into brainwashed soldiers. Heydrich oversees the incorporation of the "slag-fathers" in prison camps across Germany, having countless innocent people thrown to the City beasts to be violated and butchered in the name of resource expansion, and also has the minds of dozens of Seers harvested and put into perpetual agony to boost Nazi power and later casually murders his own son just to prove a point. Himself a Seer, Heydrich plans to ascend to godhood using the corpses of countless people worldwide, shattering the minds of any and every living thing until the whole world is under a Reich of Heydrich's design.
- Watchmen: Senator Joseph "Joe" Keene is the true leader of the Cyclops splinter cell known as the Seventh Kavalry, using his position as an Oklahoma politician to mask his terrorist activities. Organizing the Seventh Kavalry and using them to perpetrate the White Night—a massacre of off-duty police officers and their families on Christmas night—Keene gets dozens of Tulsa police killed just so he can institute a new law to protect cops and make himself look good. After discovering the presence of Dr. Manhattan, Keene has the Kavalry commit a variety of other murders and bombings, threatening the entire family of Angela Abar along the way, before capturing Manhattan and revealing his plans to drain the man's life force and powers to become a god and rewrite reality to one where white men reign supreme just to satisfy his racist, egomaniacal agenda.

@Lightysnake does that mean you’re giving Pre Viszla a
?
Also
to Hyde and Dracula
Edited by G-Editor on Jan 27th 2020 at 5:16:38 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff