During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to Vizsla. I don't think he stacks up given the heinous standard. Even though he has fewer resources than say, Riff Tamson, it still seems fairly standard for Star Wars. His redeeming qualities are admittedly debatable, but I can't write them off totally either.
For what it's worth on heinousness, Vizsla stacks up pretty well to the likes of Tamson despite having way less resources. He gets plenty of people killed in terrorist activities, he massacres an entire innocent village (even Tamson's acts were mainly focused on people in a war, Vizsla callously enslaves and massacres a village just because he feels like it), and he unleashes criminals onto Mandalore who explicitly kill many innocent people and nearly gun down children. I would hardly call it standard, even by the setting, especially for someone at Vizsla's tier.
Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Jan 27th 2020 at 4:30:04 AM
In the meanwhile, Scrags and I have an interesting duo...for the Top Cow universe.
What's the work?
Monster War is a 4 issue mini featuring Magdalena, Witchblade, Lara Croft and Jackie "The Darkness" Estacado against a pair of vicious monsters...Dracula and Mr. Hyde, who plot the apocalypse....I give you Edward Hyde.
Who is Hyde?
Originally the evil half of Henry Jekyll, Hyde found a way to split from Jekyll, resulting in the both of the becoming their own individuals....and Hyde? Fully embraces his darkness. Finding Dracula, the two embark on a wicked scheme together: Hyde has looked beyond the veil of reality and found the Old Ones, the creatures of madness and darkness, pure chaos that can devour humanity and he plots to let them in.
Hyde becomes a mad scientist for Dracula, harnessing the vampire's blood for a dark purpose. After they ambush Magdalena, Hyde feed sher to Dracula to infect her, while he assists Dracula in procuring new victims to make vampire slaves, with a large body count...using his own blood to make the point of, shall we say...all beings have a bestial side, he infects the vampires and sics them on the victims, resulting in them savaged, with the good sides dying and new beast men produced. Hyde plans to unleash them, ravaging the world with mass slaughter as all are twisted into evil parodies of themselves, true servants of the Old Ones....Hyde intends to unleash the Old Ones, using himself as a gateway, to devour humanity and cause a Lovecraftian apocalypse.
But tis not to be as the heroes arrive for the battle, including Hyde's better half Jekyll. The vampires are destroyed as Hyde attempts to use himself as a barrier for the Old Ones, but Jekyll styops him, forcibly recombining them as Hyde shrieks in protest...to stop Hyde? Jekyll shoots himself in the head, killing Hyde while their bodies are linked.
Any mitigating factors?
Hyde obliterates the standard with a huge body count and an attempted Old One apocalypse there, with cruel experiments and attempted mass murderer, only Dracula equaling him.
The issue of course...it's Mr. Hyde, Jekyll's evil side made flesh. The issue is, though...Hyde has a monologue on how once good and evil are separated, they can make choices, choose their own way and become their own beings. Jekyll has certainly been able to, and possesses the willpower to keep going even without Hyde in him...I think it's a Dark Mari situation where the evil side gains agency here. Hyde is a thinking, rational (well, okay, he's fucking insane, but still)being able to make his decisions and knows the repercussions, not bound to evil just because he is what he is.
conclusion?
I'd say keep old Eddie Hyde.
Yes to Hyde. I was ready to dismiss him until that weird monologue about choice came in.
Now, his cohort, Lord Dracula himself.
Who is Dracula? What has he done?
Resurrected by Edward Hyde and forcibly ingratiated to him (and it's indicated this has happened before) Dracula is the other half of the story's Big Bad Duumvirate. Dracula opens the story overpowering and painfully biting Magdalena, resulting in Magdalena slowly succumbing to the vampiric curse and becoming Dracula's slave. Dracula notes Magdalena is fighting from within, and gleefully pledges to watch as she loses herself to the curse fully.
Dracula is fully aware and fully onboard with Hyde's apocalyptic plans for Earth, hungry to see the entire human race exterminated and willing to see Earth twisted into a hellscape for this to happen. Dracula blows off some steam once by waltzing into a brothel called the Platinum Kiss, massacring twenty-five innocent people to feed upon them and turning three other women into vampire brides, ones that Dracula willingly turns over for Hyde's experimentation. Dracula is gleefully intent on spreading Hyde's altered vampire virus to see all of humanity be consumed by their savage sides, and turns into a monstrous form to kill Magdalena when she escapes his grasp—which ends with Magdalena chopping the bastard's bat head off.
Any mitigating factors?
Mmmm, nope. He's just as nasty as Hyde with a much larger onscreen body count, and while the evil plan isn't his, Dracula is a willing participant from the start and equally important as Hyde in actually kicking off the whole Hell on Earth business. Pretty nasty for Drac.
Conclusion?
Keep.
I'm confused why anyone is saying Pre Vizsla doesn't pass the baseline. The reason he was originally cut, and the reason I continue to support that, involved him having disqualifying traits. The heinousness standard is also open to discussion. But I really don't see how he doesn't at least pass the baseline.
