During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Also from the character folder of Gouz and Maise from Infinite Dendrogram
- Complete Monster: There's nothing redeemable about him or his partner
So these guys runs a gang which kidnaps kids and butcher and eat them going off their character page. Anyone interested in checking this one out ?
Edited by miraculous on Jan 27th 2020 at 1:55:47 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."![]()
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As I said, I have not read the fic. I do not know how much it contains.
Also, it's pretty inconsistent how much that rule has stopped us in the past. We have a CM from a f*cking Inside Out fanfic.
Edited by Critica7 on Jan 27th 2020 at 1:59:13 AM
Check out my current fanfiction project.![]()
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...I really don't see the difference.
In any case, I don't see why we even need that rule. I don't have the time to read through this entire forum, so was there some sort of problem with fanfics that were too different from the original work? At least from my perspective, a CM is a CM, no matter the source material.
Edited by Critica7 on Jan 27th 2020 at 2:31:17 AM
Check out my current fanfiction project.Grimdark material. Having gratuitous elements happen that otherwise litter fanfics that have little to no plot. Fanfics that are based on canon works but radicalize the setting to situate the darker themes but otherwise use the elements to tell a story instead of "X does this For the Evulz" I have no problem with.
Fair enough. I still don't see the difference but I'll try to stick with stuff that is at least somewhat similar to its source material.
Check out my current fanfiction project.Sorry for your loss Mimic.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 27th 2020 at 5:21:43 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Derek and Tujiro.
to Harkon, too, despite the high standard I think he makes it.
So sorry for your loss, Mimic
Since there was adequate interest in at the least a proposal, here is Pre Vizsla from Star Wars: The Clone Wars.
Who is Pre Vizsla? What has he done?
Pre Vizsla is a member of the Mandalorian race, who believes that his people becoming pacifist has ruined their culture and power in the universe, and organized the terrorist group known as Death Watch under his banner.
Using Death Watch to commit a variety of attacks in secret while allying with Count Dooku, Vizsla has a Death Watch bomber destroy a Mandalorian landmark in the middle of its capital city, catching many people up in the blast.
When Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi arrives on Mandalore, Vizsla has him captured and nearly killed by a rock-crushing machine. After Kenobi escapes and takes down many Death Watch members, Vizsla arrives and executes one of his beaten soldiers, snarling "Failure" at the fallen trooper before blasting him.
Engaging Kenobi in a one-on-one duel—even giving Kenobi his lightsaber to fight with—Vizsla quickly realizes he is losing and simply orders his troops to enter the fight and kill Kenobi, but Kenobi escapes Mandalore with its ruler, Duchess Satine, in tow, planning to appeal to the Jedi Council to help fight Death Watch.
Vizsla is planning to take over Mandalore and return it to its bloodthirsty roots, but, knowing Satine could interfere, he sends an assassin to kill her onboard her personal starship, and the assassin nearly destroys the entire ship and its dozens of passengers just to kill Satine.
Sending another assassin after Satine who kills many innocent people in his quest for her head, Vizsla fails in his mission to stop her from gaining Republic aid, and is sent into hiding.
At some point having a falling out with Dooku that drives himself and the Death Watch into hiding on the snowy planted Carlac. Vizsla assumes control of a large village, taking many of the women to be used as slaves for Death Watch. When Ahsoka Tano arrives undercover alongside Lux Bonteri, Vizsla takes Lux into the Death Watch in exchange for information on Count Dooku, Vizsla seeking to murder the count for scarring his face during their falling out.
Vizsla's encampment also tortures droids for fun, reducing many to scrap piles just to rebuild them and torment them again, with adequate focus put on the sentient droids' plights.
When the village leader confronts Vizsla about returning their women to him, Vizsla agrees, giving his word that he will give the villagers back the enslaved women. Vizsla then reveals his word means nothing as he stabs the village chief's young daughter in front of the man, before ordering Death Watch to slaughter the entire village.
Death Watch sets the village aflame and opens fire on its innocents, but Ahsoka sheds her disguise to save the villagers, leading to her own capture. Vizsla then attempts to murder a defenseless Ahsoka while Lux watches, but the abused droids help fight back and enable Ahsoka and Lux's escape.
In his final arc appearance, Vizsla rescues a half-dead Darth Maul and his brother, Savage Opress, healing them to full strength in exchange for a partnership. Vizsla and Maul begin traveling to the various bases of crime lords, killing anyone who stands in their way, and swaying the crime lords to join Death Watch.
Planning to betray and kill Maul and Savage once they outlive their usefulness, Vizsla has the criminals orchestrate a variety of attacks on Mandalore, killing security guards and innocent civilians alike with even children in the crosshairs, all so Death Watch can then swoop in and "save the day," convincing much of Mandalore that Death Watch are heroes.
Capturing Duchess Satine, Vizsla begins either turning any of her loyalists to his side, or executing them, before assuming control of Mandalore. Vizsla then betrays Maul and Savage, having them both locked up and planning to either force them to do his bidding, or kill them. Vizsla also hopes to use Satine to lure in Kenobi, so Vizsla can kill them both as revenge for ruining his original plans.
Unfortunately for Vizsla, Maul escapes confinement and challenges him to a duel in front of his men for rule of Death Watch. Vizsla, obligated by Mandalorian code to accept, fights Maul but is ultimately overwhelmed and decapitated by the Sith.
Does Vizsla have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
Vizsla has no excuse for his actions. He just loathes the pacifist ways Mandalore has taken up, and longs to return to its warrior roots.
Vizsla's soldiers, especially Bo-Katan, seem to be very loyal to him, but Vizsla himself shows no explicit care for his men. He guns one of them down for failure, he orders Bo-Katan around with shouts and zero warmth, and when Maul is strangling Bo-Katan with the Force, Vizsla just watches and then smirks after Maul agrees to join them.
Vizsla also does not care about Mandalore as anything but a prize and something to rule for his ideals. He arranges bombings in public places, executes any of Satine's advisors who don't cow to him, and uses the crime syndicates to kill many innocent Mandalorians just so he can swoop in and seem like a hero. Vizsla claims to be doing what's best for Mandalore, but it's truthfully just what's best for himself.
Lastly and most arguably, Vizsla's final fight and death could be said to show a measure of honor, as he accepts Maul's challenge to a duel and, when beaten, just growls "Only the strongest will rule."
I don't see this as redeeming, personally. Maul explicitly notes he's going to challenge Vizsla "in front of his men," and when Maul does, Vizsla noticeably glances around the room hesitantly at his men watching for his reaction, showing that he almost definitely would have declined it if his men weren't there. And Vizsla's final words being an almost yielding to Maul's superiority does not come off as honor me, but rather Vizsla's own Might Makes Right and Social Darwinist philosophy being active, as well as just trying to go out with some measure of dignity in front of his men.
Vizsla often talks about how only the strong survive, and how the weak should never be in charge, so Might Makes Right is his entire worldview, it is not necessarily redeeming that he subscribes to it even when faced with death, it just shows he has a twisted worldview that he's willing to ascribe to himself.
Also, Vizsla is shown to be a dishonourable bastard in many other areas, such as when he challenges Kenobi to one-on-one, then immediately orders his men to join in when he's losing. Or when he gives his word that he will leave the villagers alone, only to butcher them For the Evulz.
I truly cannot say I see Vizsla's final moments as legitimate honor when so many other parts of his character are shown to be very dishonourable.
Is Vizsla sufficiently heinous?
This was my initial concern for asking, but I think Vizsla really makes it. He uses Death Watch to perform terrorist attacks (like the bombing), he sends two assassins after Satine that also target innocent people (which Vizsla is fine with), he enslaves a village then kills the chief's daughter in front of him before ordering the village slaughtered just because he can, and he works with Maul to use Engineered Heroics to get many innocent people killed just so Death Watch can look like heroes. He also plans to lure Kenobi in to save Satine and kill them both, and kills one of his own soldiers for failure.
For just a terrorist leader of a very small cell, I think Vizsla passes. He would have the least personal power and resources of any listed CM from The Clone Wars, yet nonetheless commits some extremely brutal crimes. Maul may take over Death Watch afterwards, but he never does worse than Vizsla with their resources, and Vizsla actually surpasses Maul in villainy in the show, despite Maul and Savage being powerful Sith.
Final Verdict?
I think Vizsla deserves a reevaluation, and I personally give him a
Viszla. I just don't think he lives up to the heinous standard.

How much ultra violence are we talking. I could be game.
Though as a fanfic wouldn't that break our too divorced from the original work rule.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."