During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@Mimic45 My deepest condolences!
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)First off, my sympathies to Mimic.
Second, don't know if this version of Jinmen was deemed too samey to his manga version or not, but from this short clip he is really vile:
EIT:Oh, nevermind, it looks like he is from Cyborg 009 vs. Devilman OVA and it is literally almost all there was to him. I just thought he was from a newest adaptation.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 27th 2020 at 11:12:34 PM
Sorry mimic. Take your time.
Is That Ova jinmem. I think what happened their was added to his old entry.
We could add this video to the complete monster video examples list with ciocalatta.
Edit: Ah right. It's Actually from cyborg 009 vs devilman. My bad.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 27th 2020 at 12:13:42 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Let's try this one.
Derek Fossen from the ER episodes "Where the Heart Is" (Season Seven, Episode 21) and "Rampage" (Season Seven, Episode 22)
The Show: To paraphrase the page here: A long-running Medical Drama that redefined the genre. It was the first to show graphically realistic emergency procedures and reproduce the disorganized clutter of a real metropolitan hospital. Set in Cook County General Hospital, the show followed an ever-changing, ethnically diverse cast of doctors, nurses, administrators and medical students as they deal with the day-to-day angst of saving lives. Their personal lives took a back seat to taut scenes of trying to help patients with their various physical and emotional emergencies. The main character arc was that of John Carter (Noah Wyle) who evolved throughout the course of the show from an uncertain medical student to the wise and infinitely capable chief resident.
Who They Are: A single father, Derek is away from home a lot, which means that his young son, Ben, is left alone a lot. Derek physically abuses Ben, with the abuse causing Ben to become aggressive and anti-social. Derek was also at one point arrested for beating his girlfriend (whether she was Ben's mother is left unsaid).
What They Do: Ben burns himself starting a fire, and a neighbor brings him to Cook County General Hospital. He acts worryingly abrasive towards everyone, and shows signs of having been abused physically (he has a Colles' fracture and there is a massive bruise behind one of his ears, for example) while being looked over by Doctor Mark Greene. Ben (who claims to not remember how he sustained his various injuries) falls largely silent when Derek drops by; Derek blames all of Ben's anti-social behavior on his mother being out of the picture, and acts suspiciously defensive when Mark tells him that Ben is going to see a psychiatrist. Derek spends the entire interview lurking outside and looking into the room, which intimidates Ben into continuing to claim to not know how he has gotten hurt. It's decided that, for his own good, Ben should be held by social services for a few days, to the protests of him and Derek. After getting the news, Derek tries to literally drag Ben out of the hospital, but gets restrained by security and separated from Ben.
During a discussion with Mark, Ben admits that his father beats him (at one point breaking both of his arms by giving him violent "Indian burns") for doing things like playing too loudly and leaving messes, and that it is all his fault because, "He wouldn't do it if I wasn't bad."
Ben being taken away from him due to the suspicions of abuse being confirmed causes Derek to snap. Arming himself with a semi-automatic pistol, Derek barges into a foster care facility in search of Ben, and when it becomes clear that Ben is not there, he opens fire on everyone present (including the children) and hits twelve people, a few of whom die, with the rest being brought to Cook County (where a wounded little girl quickly dies).
Derek proceeds to force a car to stop, and shoots the driver even after the man gives the vehicle up, with the victim being taken to Cook County. Derek goes to the home of the neighbor who had brought Ben to Cook County, and shoots her and her young son, Ted. Before dying, the neighbor reveals that she was attacked by Derek. Six people have died so far, and as the police scour the city in search of him, Derek runs one officer over, with the wounded man also being taken to Cook County. Derek then shoots one of the social workers who had interviewed Ben at her home in Piedmont.
Derek knowing where to find the social worker worries Mark, and officers are sent to check in on his wife, Doctor Elizabeth Corday, and their baby, Ella. The house is empty, Elizabeth having gone out with Ella. Derek was on his way to Mark's house in a taxi to kill Mark's family when the taxi's radio announced an APB on him, so he kills the cab driver and flees to Lincoln Park.
Derek starts shooting at completely random people, and injures three before being shot by one of them (who happened to be armed) and taken to Cook County. Derek rants that everything, from Ben being "stolen" and his family being "destroyed" to the shooting rampage and all of the deaths and injuries are all Mark's fault, asking what gave Mark the right to have Ben taken away while pointedly ignoring that he himself has just taken plenty of largely random people away from their families. Nineteen people in total were shot, with about eight or nine dead at present.
Derek starts going into cardiac arrest while alone in an elevator with Mark. Mark, having passed several of Derek's victims and their loved ones on the way into the elevator, breaks his Hippocratic Oath (and probably the law) by only pretending to try and resuscitate Derek, who dies.
Heinousness: Not counting the anonymous terrorists from the Doctors Without Borders and War in the Middle East episodes and another recurring villain who I am also going to propose, the only remotely similar antagonists were the two nameless and faceless (we only see them from afar) diner robbers (who killed three people, and wounded several others) from "A Thousand Cranes" (S9E16) and the three armored car robbers (only one of whom we meet, and even then he remains nameless and gets only a single line of dialogue before dying) who ended up killing and injuring an unknown number of people while shooting it out with the police near a school in "May Day" (S6E22).
Probably the worst thing about him was the serious case of Never My Fault. My son isn't troubled because I beat him, he's troubled because he's "bad" and his mother (who I may have beat) is out of the picture. My son wasn't taken because I beat him, he was taken because Doctor Greene overstepped his bounds and meddled in my life, so now everyone (including the neighbor and her own young son who brought mine to the hospital to get his burns treated) needs to pay for that. It's not my fault that I shot all of those people (including the 8 year-old orphan girl who died) it's Doctor Greene's fault, and I'm going to murder his wife and their infant daughter, etc.
Mitigating Factors: The closest that he comes to ever showing any kind of genuine concern (and not just possessiveness) for his son is when he says that Ben has not eaten since being brought to the hospital.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Derek.
Sorry, Mimic. Cannot do much, but I offer you my support from beyond my screen. Not much, but I hope it helps, even if only a little.
About Riddle School... I have no idea what I was thinking. Just know that I will make an effort to EP villains who are actually taken seriously, and sorry for bringing up something that was already decided.
Edited by MasterN on Jan 27th 2020 at 2:03:53 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.![]()
![]()
Yeah, that was my thought.
As for Harkon, even if letting the Dragonborn go was just a case of him not caring, I'm still abstaining because of the standard, though having his own daughter raped may push me to a VERY slight yes.
The other villains you mentioned: Dagoth Ur's a WIE, Daedrics are Made of Evil?
Also, it will always amuse me how Alduin wanting to Take Over the World instead of being an Omnicidal Maniac somehow makes him more heinous.
Edited by ACW on Jan 27th 2020 at 4:22:35 AM
And IIRC, isn't that also the case with the Chaos Gods?
Also, looking at his character page more, Dagoth Ur seems like a fairly complex character.
Daedric Princes are the embodiment of their own domains. Mehrunes Dagon, for example, theoretically can't be anything but a god of destruction in this capacity. Vague Elder Scrolls metaphysics and contradicting evidence on both sides of the argument mean I'll never be comfortable with a Daedric Prince going up. Dagoth Ur's backstory is incredibly touchy, for starters.
- Complete Monster: The stalker definitely counts as one. At no point is he made out to be sympathetic, seeing as how he's a pedophile, a molester, a stalker, and just in general a bad person.
Well that's vague....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."If it helps, Derek's behavior during the hospital scenes was kind of cold. His response to learning about the fire accident is just, "He's always getting into trouble." He brushes all of Ben's questionable injuries off as being the result of things like him fighting other children, and complains that he has to get back to work while being adamant that there is not going to be any treatment, tests, or interviews and that they need to leave NOW.
Through it all, observers note that Ben has kind of a love-hate relationship with his father, wanting to go home with him while at same time being completely and utterly terrified of him.
Has anyone here read the Blood Bond, Blood Omen Series? From the description, it seems like The Unshaper might qualify, but the story contains excessive Gorn and I'm too squeamish to actually read it and find out.
Check out my current fanfiction project.

@ACW
Yes, I'm planning to write the entries for the I, Spy villains very soon. I wanted to do it earlier, but there's been a death in my family recently, so I wasn't really in the mood to work on it.