During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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Pretty sure Griffin is the only approved DH/CM to date.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 3rd 2019 at 1:23:32 PM
Sounds like if a Designated Hero is a Complete Monster then the author fucked up real bad.
This is Red Zone Cuba. It's basically "the author fucked up real bad, the movie"
HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA![]()
Agreed.
My take is that most DHs to a certain degree are villains because God are they not heroes (see Teaching Mrs. Tingle and Snow Day for where they're still heroes in my opinion). That's just me though.
Ahmanet certainly isn't a hero or DH (and haha, I don't mean Deathly Hallows), but she was supposed to be flawed and tragic. The writers messed up so badly, she ended up a CM.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 3rd 2019 at 10:41:59 AM
Chip the Living Doll Collector.
EDIT: From Apocalypse:
- Well-Intentioned Extremist: En Sabah Nur's plans are horrific in scope and devastation, yet he's not in it for the power. He genuinely buys his own sell about making the world a better place through ruthless Darwinism.
Either that's COMPLETELY mistaken, or AT BEST Depending on the Writer.
EDIT: Okay, from Ascended Fridge Horror:
- For some fans, the introduction of "Force Ghosts" in the Original Trilogy carries a bit of a disturbing undertone, since one can't help but wonder what sort of havoc a Sith Lord like Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine could cause if they ever managed to come back to haunt our heroes after death. The Jedi Academy Trilogy answers that question in truly disturbing fashion: the plot involves fledgling Jedi Kyp Durron encountering the spirit of the Sith Lord Exar Kun on Yavin IV, which ultimately leads to him being seduced to the Dark Side and stealing the Sun Crusher super-weapon. By the end of the story, he's destroyed entire star systems all because of the influence of the undead Sith.
Now, Exar DOES have a CM entry (for Tales of the Jedi), but that bit about the Sun Crusher seems like it merits more than a one-sentence mention.
Edited by ACW on Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:31:39 PM
BTW, when Apocalypse gets split, here's the 616 entry:
- Apocalypse: An ancient Egyptian who gained his powers from Celestial technology, En Sabah Nur ("The First One"), better known as Apocalypse, is one of the oldest, and one of the most evil, mutants in existence. Believing that the strong must dominate the weak, Apocalypse aims to test humanity. Those who survive the process will be allowed to live as his servants, those who fail, die. Apocalypse has a history of granting powers to other unscrupulous individuals, transforming Nathaniel Essex into the mad geneticist Mister Sinister in exchange for Sinister agreeing to unleash a plague that would exterminate most of humanity, and empowering terrorist leader Moses Magnum, in exchange for the latter winnowing out the strong from the weak. He later uses conducts experiments on test subjects to find a new body, and, seeing himself as a god, eventually destroys an ancient civilization. Believing wholeheartedly that those he considers weak must be slain, Apocalypse is well-deserving of his name.
Worth expanding at all, or nah? At the very leash, I'm potholing "having another use a superweapon to destroy solar systems" to Jedi Academy Trilogy.
Also, there's this; I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning in Legends!Palpatine's long list of crimes or not (maybe combine with Darth Plagueis for a Legends Lit Palpatine?):
- Many a Star Wars fan has lost sleep wondering just what sort of barbaric acts of cruelty could make Darth Vader—a man infamous for casually murdering underlings who disappoint him—seem merciful by comparison, after Return of the Jedi gives us the immortal line "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am". The novel Darksaber gives us a good idea: Emperor Palpatine once punished Bevel Lemelisk, the designer of the original Death Star, by cloning him multiple times—with his memories fully intact each time—just so he could repeatedly murder him in various creative ways. Like melting him in a vat of molten copper, dissolving him in acidic gas, throwing him out of an airlock, and leaving him to be devoured by a swarm of flesh-eating beetles. Eek.
The Star Wars page will NOT be fun to clean up.
Edited by ACW on Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:42:33 PM
Also late
for Crane. We have video game versions, an adaptation of The Dark Knight trilogy, and now both at once. Perfeclty balanced as all things should be.
Chip and abstaining on Neron. While we got many who immediately got over the death of someone they may have loved - hell I recently brought up someone who realized they didn't care the moment their "friend" dies - but Neron feels like it's grasping at straws.
So by the looks of it, I was the only one to have brought up a new DC TV candidate. Don't know if I should be prideful or dissapointed. I'm gonna go with blazè.
Also - Yes, this has somthing to do with somone I'm bringing up in a few - do we consider those who obstensivley go after Asshole Victims heinous enough. PM if you want details.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Speaking of Star Wars, here's one from my excessive potholing phase
- New Jedi Order: Onimi was once a gifted Shaper whose experiments resulted in him becoming hideous and malformed, branding him as a Shamed One and outcast in the eyes of the Yuuzhan Vong. However, his experiments also granted him incredible power. He enslaved the mind of Supreme Overlord Shimrra Jamaane, ruling the Yuuzhan Vong as the secret master from the shadows while being publicly presented as Shimrra's court jester, hiding his intellect behind Obfuscating Stupidity. Onimi ordered the invasion of the Galaxy, leading to a brutal campaign that saw hundreds of trillions dead and entire species and worlds annihilated by the Yuuzhan Vong. Desperate to contain the supposed "Jeedai" heresy, Onimi initiates violent purges of his own people, slaughtering them en masse while throwing away the lives of loyal Yuuzhan Vong on pointless endeavors throughout the war. When he faces off with the Solo twins, Onimi reveals he has come to see them as avatars of the Yuuzhan Vong gods of trickery and war and reveals his intentions to continue the massacre of everything in the galaxy to elevate himself to godhood. Twisted, cruel and obsessed with his own glory, Onimi aimed to destroy all he could for the sole purpose of spitting in the faces of the gods he abandoned in his own hubris.
As much as I have to reduce potholes, it has to be done, so:
- New Jedi Order: Onimi was once a gifted Shaper whose experiments resulted in him becoming hideous and malformed, branding him as a Shamed One and outcast in the eyes of the Yuuzhan Vong. However, his experiments also granted him incredible power. He enslaved the mind of Supreme Overlord Shimrra Jamaane, ruling the Yuuzhan Vong as the secret master from the shadows while being publicly presented as Shimrra's court jester, hiding his intellect behind Obfuscating Stupidity. Onimi ordered the invasion of the Galaxy, leading to a brutal campaign that saw hundreds of trillions dead and entire species and worlds annihilated by the Yuuzhan Vong. Desperate to contain the supposed "Jeedai" heresy, Onimi initiates violent purges of his own people, slaughtering them en masse while throwing away the lives of loyal Yuuzhan Vong on pointless endeavors throughout the war. When he faces off with the Solo twins, Onimi reveals he has come to see them as avatars of the Yuuzhan Vong gods of trickery and war and reveals his intentions to continue the massacre of everything in the galaxy to elevate himself to godhood. Twisted, cruel and obsessed with his own glory, Onimi aimed to destroy all he could for the sole purpose of spitting in the faces of the gods he abandoned in his own hubris.
Thoughts? I had a hard time deciding which ones to cut and which to keep.
Edited by ACW on Jun 3rd 2019 at 4:11:40 AM
@ACW: I've said my piece on the Vertigo stuff, but the Hellblazer stuff's come up too many times. Move them all under the same roof at DC.
No to Neron. This is transparently ignoring a redeeming quality. Just because he "never mentions her again" doesn't make that quality null and void—we cut movie!Jason Wynn for a split second painful look in response to his minion's death. Nothing invalidates it and we should be stricter on similar cases.
Edited by Scraggle on Jun 3rd 2019 at 1:17:40 AM
Yeah, Authorial Intent is irrelevant. Aside from Designated Hero types Like Griffin there are Plenty of Accidental C Ms, like Nekron, Carl Tanner, Unalaq, or Ahmanet come to mind.
Also good luck Forenperser!
Things are really about to get Fun around here

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 3rd 2019 at 1:18:46 PM