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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#123376: Jul 8th 2018 at 3:04:43 PM

[up] That discussion is over. Move on.

Also, I think we should maybe elaborate a bit more on how many of the children die, and Steele's final Ax-Crazy personality at the end of the Steele rewrite, as I think it may just be a little short. The rewrite is good as it is, but I think that Steele's vicious bullying of Balto at the end is quite heinous.

Edited by MenInGreyToBlak on Jul 8th 2018 at 12:12:21 PM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#123377: Jul 8th 2018 at 3:07:47 PM

He's just giving his thoughts about it. Shouldn't be that bad.

[up] No child dies, but nearly does so. As for the writeup itself, I find nothing wrong with it. I feel that it's concise enough without needing unnecessary splurges of detail. Not every writeup needs to be 200 or 300 words long.

Edited by AustinDR on Jul 8th 2018 at 3:15:01 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#123378: Jul 8th 2018 at 3:12:55 PM

[up][up] Feel free to propose an expansion.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#123379: Jul 8th 2018 at 3:19:14 PM

1. We're discussing Vincent over on MB as well, so I think he's just on the brain right now, don't think Ambar meant anything more than just casting an honest vote.

2. What exactly is it missing? I'm really not thrilled to throw in details on him being a jerk to the protagonist, even if he's frothing at the mouth while doing it. I'm not saying my writing is perfect but I included the impact of his actions, what exactly is it missing?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#123380: Jul 8th 2018 at 3:19:52 PM

[tup] to Chance Terence Cole, Gerald Thomas, Dr Cardoza, Francis Bolt, Hector and Max.

CyberXIII Since: Apr, 2009
#123381: Jul 8th 2018 at 3:21:35 PM

Got a new one, not sure if anyone's even thought about him yet...

Who is he? Chuck Wilson, leader of the Futurians/Future People from ‘’Godzilla vs King Ghidorah.’’

What has he done? Chuck Wilson was the leader of the Futurians and the mastermind of, well, the entire movie’s plot. Paranoid about Japan becoming an economic superpower, Wilson hatches a mad plan to ensure this never happens. First, he takes a time machine along with his allies Glenchiko, Emi Kano, and a small army of androids. Then, he takes three genetically engineered creatures called Dorats with him to the past, in 1991. Convincing Japan’s government to aid him with lies about Godzilla, he has his lackeys travel to the past, and attempt to remove Godzilla from history. In short, they fail, but more on that in a moment. On his orders, Emi leaves the three Dorats behind, where they are hit by a nuclear explosion, absorbing the radiation and becoming forcibly fused together into the Heisei King Ghidorah. In the present day, Wilson takes control of King Ghidorah and directs it like a living WMD. It destroys an entire city and kills hundreds of people under his orders, before flying to Hokkaido next, killing everything in their path. Wilson finds Japan’s attempts at fighting back hilarious. Eventually, Japan has no choice but to bring Godzilla back, using a new nuclear submarine to re-energize him and purge him of the infection that was slowly killing him. After a long battle, he severs Ghidorah’s middle head and destroys his wings, plunging him into the ocean. Meanwhile Emi and Wilson’s strongest robot M-11 betray him, and aid the protagonists in confronting him. Wilson shows no remorse for all the lives he’s taken, and simply gloats that he will swiftly be warped back to the future. Of course, that doesn’t happen; Emi sabotages his escape mechanism and instead he’s teleported in front of Godzilla, who incinerates him.

Redeeming Qualities? None. Wilson was a paranoid xenophobe and a horrible little sadist that had zero remorse for his crimes.

Heinous Standard? Wilson had more resources than any of the other human antagonists in the Heisei Godzilla era and remains the only one who had control of a kaiju, using it to destroy an entire city. Only one later villainous faction tried it, and failed miserably. Worse, he’s indirectly responsible for Godzilla returning and going on a third rampage, as Japan had to bring back the monster to kill King Ghidorah. He's only overshadowed by Space Godzilla, and THAT was a cosmic eldritch abomination.

Edited by CyberXIII on Jul 8th 2018 at 3:21:39 AM

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#123382: Jul 8th 2018 at 3:29:57 PM

Looking back at it, I don't actually think anything is missing. It's fine.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#123383: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:11:21 PM

Gonna say a yes to that Godzilla chap.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#123385: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:16:06 PM

Yes to that Godzilla one... no, Men, we don't need to include details about Steele being a bully. That's what was bloating the writeup in the first place — there's a fine line between being a jerk to someone and trying to murder them.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#123386: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:17:49 PM

[tup] Chuck. I also love how that in one of two films that Ghidorah isn't a CM, the guy controlling him at least counts.

Edited by Beast on Jul 8th 2018 at 4:18:32 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#123387: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:21:06 PM

[up][up] Nice.

[tup]Chuck, and I agree with what Beast said. And that's something I like about the Godzilla CM list, giant, badass monsters qualifying as CM's. The only other franchise that has that which I can think of is Metroid, who has Ridley, a badass sociopath and space dragon, and arguably Gorea, who is an Eldritch Abomination

Edited by MenInGreyToBlak on Jul 8th 2018 at 1:22:44 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#123388: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:22:20 PM

[tup]wilson. Only the second CM funnily enough from the Hesei era.

[up][up]I really hope Ghidorah counts as a CM in 2019 movie where he'll be the Big Bad. Now that I'm really exicted for.

Edited by miraculous on Jul 8th 2018 at 4:23:20 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#123389: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:26:44 PM

Godzilla vs King Ghidorah was the first Kaijū movie I watched. I would like to give Chuck Wilson a Yes, but I've got a question first.

I know that even villains who aren’t CM can increase the heinous standard. Does this also apply to Kaijū and other mindless beast? Because monsters destroying entire cities and killing hundreds of people is basically just another Tuesday in the Godzilla franchise. evil grin

Edited by NTG on Jul 8th 2018 at 4:32:35 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#123390: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:33:46 PM

Alright, let's do this...

What's the work?

Vampyr is a recent videogame by Dontnod entertainment. It's set during Victorian England when a mysterious plague is sweeping through the city of London, bringing death and pain with it....some people infected become ravenous for blood and flesh. The hero is Jonathan Reid, a scientist and doctor who is thought dead, but awakens as a vampire. After killing his own sister in the grip of his third, Jonathan is hunted by a mysterious order and later attempts to study the mysterious epidemic, even working on a cure...Now, let's talk the source of the plague...Morrigan, the Red Queen.

Who is the Red Queen?

The Red Queen, thousands of years ago was worshiped by the Celts as the goddess Morrigan. For unknown reasons, the Red Queen is a wrathful goddess, and was lulled to sleep long ago. However, such a measure is a temporary thing and she awakens at intervals, bringing plague and death to the world as she seeks to force humanity to suffer and die. Her son, Myrddin, knew the only way to combat her? Was to sire a champion in each era she awoke, turning one mortal into a vampire to set them against his monstrous mother. King Arthur was one of those vampires, as well as Francis Drake and William Marshal.

The Red Queen, stirring ow, unleashes the Skal plague, killing and infecting countless people, turning others into flesh eating monsters and setting them against one another. H Er MO is always the same: she finds a woman dissatisfied with the world and convinces that woman to become her avatar, gaining a foothold on the mortal world and unleashing the plague. In London, her avatar is a bitter woman named Harriet Jones....but her desire for revenge against humanity is insatiable. Her awakening brings out the blood of Hatred, which leads to a massive amount of blood and death. All the people the vampires kill, everyone who dies to the plague? Is the doing of the Red Queen.

Now, this is the Red Queen only partially awakened. If she really wakes up, the world is fucked because she'd cause humanity itself to die in agony. At the game's end, Myrddin guides Jonathan to face Harriet, destroying her...and the Red Queen emerges as an avatar, partially awoken. As she says: "Am I awake? Is this anger I feel? Is this wrath? I think it is! Oh, how infinitely, how intensely, how irredeemably are you all going to suffer now!" Thankfully, her avatar is defeated and Myrddin bids her to return to sleep where he will soon join her. The Red Queen is amused by this and does so, defeated...untl the next time she inevitably awakens, s Jonathan's story ends based on how morally he's conducted himself in the game.

Mitigating Qualities?

Nothing to say regarding heinousness. The Red Queen is the heinous standard, responsible for vampirism and countless deaths in the plague. Now, she's a pretty...understandable entity, all things considered. As far as redeeming qualities go, what gives me pause...characters theorize her ultimate goal is to force humanity to confront its own flaws, but while her screentime is limited, I'm not really sure this is reflected in her actions. She immediately goes to "oooh, you're all gonna suffer, and spends the fight sadistically mocking Jonathan. When she loses, she does ask Myrddin if humans have suffered upon defeat, but given her immortality, she's glad to have caused them pain until her next little cycle.

The other thing is her ambiguous feeling for Myrddin. She never says she loves him, but bears him no ill will. She gleefully calls him her "most amusing son" at the fight's end and looks forward to their next match. I'm not sure to read care for this, or just her being amused by his attempts to stop her.

Conclusion?

What say we?

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#123391: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:34:03 PM

Can I make a request for one of the my entrees? In the entry about the "other player" I think a better label is Evil Counter Part and not Omnicidal Maniac, since the "other player" is essentially what the player character can be if they were evil themselves?

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#123392: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:36:42 PM

[tup] Chance Terence Cole, Gerald Thomas, Dr Cardoza, Francis Bolt, Hector and Max and Red Queen

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#123395: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:43:02 PM

Hmm... the Red Queen's mitigating factors seem too vague to really hold against her. Way too easy to buy her simply using the whole "humanity has suffered!" thing as an excuse to torture them all herself. I'll say yes.

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#123397: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:44:56 PM

Yes to Chuck and the Red Queen, who ultimately sounds like she roots his goals in sadism, with the "confront flaws" thing just being a theory, seeming like she gets off to destroying/killing and seems happy to torment her son by killing those he tries to use to stop her from destroying the world, even if she doesn't attack him directly.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#123398: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:45:15 PM

[tup]Red Queen

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#123399: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:46:08 PM

On not confronting Myrddin directly, I should note that it may not even be possible. He never appears in the flesh (only via a blood avatar) and she's way limited as she is.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#123400: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:51:46 PM

[tup] Red Queen aka Morgana Le Fey (I have reasons for not calling her Morrigan). Also reminds me of a more personable version of Lilith who doesn't end up being The Unfought.

Also will be bringing up another Dontnod game in a couple of days too.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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