During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Assuming it's not Offscreen Villainy, and assuming none of the villains in the sequel surpass him,
Legion.
Man. More must have been based on the comics than I thought... the Campaigner, in the comics? Was a baddie who just missed. Ironically enough, he showed up after Unity to continue Erica's dreams of Unity through the Lost Land... by slaughtering every single tribe who didn't bow to him and his Unifiers.
Here's a write up for Big Jim. Also, remember how I mentioned that rebellion he was going to be a part of? Turns out, it wasn't as botched as I thought, per the second book which reveals it happened and managed to occupy Chicago. Really should have remembered that part.
Britannia's Fist by Peter G. Tsouras: James R. "Big Jim" Smoke is the chief agent of the Copperhead movement in Indiana, hated and feared throughout the Midwest. A man seething with hatred, Big Jim helped to arm and free thousands of Confederate POW to aid in a brief but bloody Copperhead uprising to take the Midwest into the Confederacy. Following its failure, Big Jim flees and joins Lafayette Baker's Secret Service, becoming Abraham Lincoln's bodyguard. He plots with John Wilkes Booth to have Lincoln kidnapped, and later, during the joint British-Confederate attack on Washington DC, Big Jim coldly attempts to kill Lincoln and his family as they comfort one another. Brutally killing several men throughout the series and smiling as he did, Big Jim is the one character that is never portrayed sympathetically once in a series full of Grey-and-Grey Morality, instead shown to be a malicious and hateful thug.
edited 13th Feb '18 10:26:29 AM by Vampireandthen
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name."If you think God from Preacher counts, propose him."
If i want to propose him, do i need to talk about this to anyone before i post him or i can just post him as soon as i make proposal? I rereading comic to see if i miss something or not (I read Preacher 3 years ago, so i need to refresh my memory).
Anyone can propose in this thread. We just ask:
A. you don't open a settled issue without new evidence or arguments.
B. Your proposal adhere to standards we set in this thread, IE: the effortpost format
C. all proposals be honest so we can evaluate and vote with a clear picture.
D. We're not dealing with stuff that we really, really, really don't want to touch....Preacher is obviously not at issue with this, so propose away.
So, if you think there's an argument to be made for Preacher!God, go for it!
You know, I think Big Jim is one of my favorite proposals. He’s a far more competent character than you would think from first glance, and while a minor one overall, still shows himself to be fairly dangerous. His interactions with Booth also have a few Even Evil Has Standards moments, but they aren’t mitigating. He’s just annoyed by Booth’s flair for the theatrics and drama which would jeopardize the plan to kidnap Lincoln.
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
That's not Even Evil Has Standards so much as Pragmatic Villainy.
Preacher God, as I've done on prior occasions he's come up. He's portrayed as essentially a bratty kid on a cosmic scale rather than someone possessed of true depravity, and at the end he honors his deal with the heroes even though he could very well not have done so, being God and all.
edited 13th Feb '18 11:03:03 AM by HamburgerTime
Also, in your writeup for Big Jim, you referred to the setting as being a place of Grey-and-Grey Morality. If it has a Complete Monster, then it should be Black-and-Grey Morality.
Edit: Also, to answer your question, no, a Complete Monster does not have genuine standards. It can be marked as a subversion to Even Evil Has Standards but it is sure as hell not getting played straight with a pure evil villain.
edited 13th Feb '18 11:02:39 AM by 43110
Yeah, Pragmatic Villainy isn't really defined as a "standard" that would disqualify a villain.
Pragmatic Villainy = not doing something evil because it will benefit you
Even Evil Has Standards = not doing something evil because you are opposed to it
The distinction is pretty clear.
edited 13th Feb '18 11:12:47 AM by 43110
Ah, I see.
I always thought those two tropes could intersect with each other? Uh, you learn something new everyday.
EDIT: Wait, so why does Akainu have Even Evil Has Standards in his character page?
That should be changed right now.
Also, the setting itself probably doesn’t qualify for Black-and-Gray Morality, reading from the trope description. Can a Grey-and-Grey Morality setting have a CM?
edited 13th Feb '18 11:28:43 AM by Vampireandthen
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.Superman: Red Son and Judge Dredd are listed under grey and grey, so I'd say yes, though that could misuse (Dredd especially seems like Black and Gray, as while Dredd's no saint, he's generally good more or less, while Death and co. are really bad).

I would say just leave the MLP subpage as it is for now. Maybe we can re-examine it later on, but I think most of those guys do indeed qualify. Also, putting nineteen CMs back under Western Animation's folder strikes me as a bad idea.
Aye to Legion, assuming it isn't made of evil.
edited 13th Feb '18 9:55:25 AM by Vampireandthen
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.