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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#108701: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:24:00 AM

Yeah, if they don't have as many resources, they could still count. It's not like, say, DBZ, where Van Zant had fewer resources than Frieza, but still couldn't count because like all the other qualifiers were omnicidal.

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#108702: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:25:00 AM

Yes to Chameleon.

I wonder if book Littlefinger will count?

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Knack2baby Since: Feb, 2018
#108703: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:27:46 AM

Anyways, pm if you want to discuss it.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#108704: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:30:05 AM

[tup]Chameleon

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Knack2baby Since: Feb, 2018
#108705: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:35:49 AM

Oh, question about something different. Does anybody from any of Rick Riordan's books count? I haven't read any of them since 2014. I was thinking maybe Kronos and Apep, have those versions of the characters been discussed already?

edited 12th Feb '18 10:36:02 AM by Knack2baby

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#108706: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:43:18 AM

Knack 2: I swear I remember Kronos being listed in the past. Not sure why he was deleted, unless Rick Riordan's other mythology series' introduced characters at Kronos' level who were worse.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#108707: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:54:46 AM

[tup] Karma karma karma karma karma Cha-mel-eon!

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Knack2baby Since: Feb, 2018
#108708: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:00:46 AM

Anyways, I know nobody is here to discuss quality but whoever wants trials of apollo can reserve it, Rick Riordan imo does not seem to know how to be a good writer anymore considering how he squandered the ending of heroes of Olympus despite building it up as Gaia being the strongest opponent in the series endlessly, doesn't take his time, and is more concerned about preaching. At least he isn't Mark Millar.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:03:40 AM by Knack2baby

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#108709: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:05:41 AM

[tup] Mothergod and Chameleon.

It's really confusing me whenever I see that username that is a Knack reference. I know it's the best game in 10 000 years, but even I need a break every now and then.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#108710: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:09:00 AM

Weak yea to the Chameleon, though I am surprised that nobody counts in the cartoon. I'd been meaning to look into that for a while.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#108711: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:09:41 AM

[tup]Chameleon.

Why so serious?
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#108712: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:12:18 AM

Oh, and as for complex CMs? Honestly, Erica might be topping my list there. Seriously, Valiant wrote its villains so well. Harada himself is a damn near miss, but it's played in a way that I'm glad he misses.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:13:13 AM by Scraggle

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#108713: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:13:32 AM

[tdown] Preston (like Scraggle, I'm dubious about Piella counting, so definite no to Preston).

Erica Pierce; the abuse she experienced from her father doesn't balance out the sheer scale of the impact she's described as having on thousands of lives. She sounds like an easy [tup]

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Knack2baby Since: Feb, 2018
#108714: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:14:10 AM

[up] I haven't even heard of Valiant before this thread. Are they obscure comics or no?

edited 12th Feb '18 11:14:37 AM by Knack2baby

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#108715: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:14:28 AM

[up] They're more obscure nowaways, but back in the 90s, Valiant was the third biggest in the market.

Totally agreed. Darque and Erica are complex complete monsters for me...but Harada? His intentions are just a bit too genuine. He's a firm believer in "can't make an omelette without breaking an egg" and he's capable of (conditional) affection to people...and genuinely, completely believes that him taking over the world is the best thing for it.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:15:00 AM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#108716: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:18:04 AM

[up][up] Valiant nowadays probably suffers from Adaptation Displacement; the Turok and Shadow Man games are probably better known than the comics.

Shame that Valiant died (well, for awhile anyway) while Image, whose Schedule Slip hindered the crossover, survived (though honestly, Deathmate seemed ill-advised from the start).

[down] Oof, I don't blame you. That seems ghastly (I will confess to a soft spot for Turok though; the first game was the first Nintendo 64 game I ever bought, even before Super Mario 64).

edited 12th Feb '18 11:24:01 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#108717: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:21:18 AM

Part of the problem? Acclaim bought Valiant out and completely gutted the company, firing lots of the staff and doing ridiculously terrible reboots.

Scraggle and I have decided to just...jump to the modern reboot of Valiant Entertainment and skip the Acclaim stuff since it's positively dreadful stuff.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#108718: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:22:24 AM

Fun little factoid about Harada, by the way? He's so dedicated to that "omelette" philosophy his strike force is even called the Eggbreakers.

And yeah, what happened to Valiant is a goddamnes tragedy. Me and Lighty have pondered what it'd be like if Deathmate never happened — or was jus handled more competently from Image's end. The contrast of quality control from Valiant and "whatever" from Image brewed disaster.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:24:35 AM by Scraggle

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#108719: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:27:01 AM

I honestly cannot think of any other potential candidates for Warcraft right now. They literally have to have apocalyptic goals, as all listed candidates have, to even be a contender at this point. Sylvanas will always redeeming qualities, the Old Gods have agency issues, and the minor villains don't compare right now. Azshara, and Xavius too actually, will need expanded write ups but that's all I can think of.

Edit: Based on what you mentioned last page, you must be talking about Gallywix, who also has redeeming qualities. Also, the stuff about him aren't spoilers since they've been in game for several weeks now.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:29:21 AM by LoreDeluxe

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Knack2baby Since: Feb, 2018
#108720: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:29:39 AM

So, on the topic of complex villains, of Blizzard's characters there are three currently listed who could definitely use an update. Specifically Xavius, Azshara, and AU Gul'dan are considerably more evil in legion.

The nightmare lord Xavius returns to ally alongside the burning legion so he can have revenge on Malfurion but is still loyal to the old gods. He corrupted most of the zone Val'sharah, the birth site of druidism on Azeroth, and its inhabitants, his corruption kills the ancient of lore Elothir and he corrupted Y'sera the green dragon aspect, Cenarius who is Malfurion's mentor, Ursoc the bear god, the druid Elerethe Renferal and the dragons protecting the emerald dream from corruption. All of them are corrupted and in a state of eternal hatred and fear. Xavius also corrupted the world tree Shaladrassil in Val'sharah and captures Malfurion briefly to torture him. He nearly corrupted all of Azeroth through the rift of aln where the emerald nightmare was born, just so he can have revenge on Malfurion.

Queen Azshara killed all of the inhabitants of Azsuna and cursed their spirits to eternal undeath for rebelling in the war of the ancients and she almost drowns the broken isles through a corrupted elemental that embodies Azshara's vengeance, the wrath of Azshara.

AU Gul'dan when he seperates Illidan's soul from his corpse in black rook hold he also corrupted and cursed the souls of the night elf defenders there so they would see anybody other than themselves and actual demons as demons for eternity.

Knack2baby Since: Feb, 2018
#108721: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:31:51 AM

[up] @lore I was actually not talking about Gallywix who I am aware has redeeming qualities, I was talking about the goblin Mogul Razdunk who becomes significantly more evil in battle for azeroth.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#108722: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:33:11 AM

BTW, I hope nobody minds, but I added this to the YMMV page for Black Panther (with the percent signs):

  • Please do not add any Complete Monster entries without going to the thread; please also wait until Lightysnake starts discussion on March 2. Even mentioning anything here, or anything at all at the thread prior to March 2 (aside from saying "This movie was awesome. PM me if you have quesions."), will result in a holler to the mods.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:33:33 AM by ACW

Knack2baby Since: Feb, 2018
#108723: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:35:03 AM

Nevermind. Release is in a few days so probably nobody posted anything on that page.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:36:14 AM by Knack2baby

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#108724: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:35:53 AM

Let's just say we've had issues with it in the past

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#108725: Feb 12th 2018 at 11:37:11 AM

Yeah, I'm doing that preemptively since it's such a big film. I did the same for Last Jedi, and I'll probably do the same for Solo and Inifinity War.


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