During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
'Yes' to Drakonis. As for Afton....I need to think on him. He's hella mysterious still, but in the same instance...a LOT has been revealed about him, so....
Next up from the Marvel Novels....here's the second candidate, who I am again surprised still hasn't had more iterations that count.
Who is he?
Arnim Zola is a Mad Scientist and wicked biological experimenter who got his start in the early days of WWII....
What has he done?
A seemingly quiet, unassuming man, Zola was in truth a lunatic who deeply enjoyed performing horrifying experiments on innocents, and in his large castle, he had plenty of space to bring kidnapped innocents and perform experiments that left them wailing, pain-filled abominations.
When WWII started, Zola was routinely approached by Swiss refugees and their families fleeing battlefields, requesting to stay at his abode for shelter. Zola realized then and there that he now had a buffet of victims...
Years into WWII, as Zola would invite refugee families into his home only to subject them to brutal dissections and experiments, Zola made himself known to Adolf Hitler, at which point he came under the tutelage of the "Angel of Death" himself....Josef Mengele.
Working as a Bastard Understudy to Mengele, learning the ropes of evermore deplorable experiments, Zola eventually assisted in constructing the atom bomb that Red Skull used to bomb Washington, D.C. in his new reality.
In the present? Zola has implanted his mind in a grotesque android body to keep himself immortal, and now works as the "Minister of Health", titled the Reichsminister, of Skull's Nazi Empire.
Given control of the entire country of Genosha, Zola turns the country into his own little corner of hell, where he butchers explicitly millions of people over the decades. Vivisections, gas chambers, any new ways to kill and torment? Zola experiments with it.
His main subjects being mutants, Zola implants painful neural inhibitor chips in them to keep them under his control, and in one notably awful case? Reducing Kitty Pryde, Shadowcat, whose power is phasing, to a ghostly being unable to solidify OR fully phase herself through things.
Employing mutants like Kurt Wagner, Nightcrawler, as his servants, Zola regularly hunts down mutants, and has zero problem slaughtering his way through normal people to do so. In just two cases? Zola burns an entire neighborhood to the ground to draw out one mutant, and later threatens to wipe out an entire village if they don't hand over a mutant they are harboring.
On Genosha, Zola tortures and brutally experiments on innocents until, when he finally tires of them, he feeds their bodies, dead or alive, into huge furnaces, leaving an awful plume of smoke perpetually over Genosha.
When learning that one of the Nazi generals, Scott Sommers (Yes, not Summers in the new Nazi reality) is a mutant, Zola interrogates Nightcrawler, one of his own top soldiers, for information simply because he's a mutant as well, and when Nightcrawler truthfully tells him that he knows nothing? Zola orders he be brought to the "psychiatric ward" anyway, where Zola literally carves into people's brains in psychotic attempts to read their minds. Nightcrawler promptly screams that he has rights and that he has served Zola loyally for years. Zola responds by cackling and proclaiming "You are a mutant, you have no rights!"
In the end, Skull is beaten, and this reality's version of Zola ceases to exist, so....anticlimactic for him, but yay, I guess?
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
For Zola himself? No. He's a monstrous lunatic who gets his jollies from experimenting on innocents, something he is proud of having done to millions of people.
The only issue here is that this IS a world where Skull has twisted several people's minds into being more evil (See: Cyclops, Xavier, etc.), so one could TECHNICALLY make the argument that Zola might only be as evil as he is because of that.....but I don't see it, personally. Zola is a monster in the X-Men's own universe, and while he's got different crimes and a new backstory, every indication is that he's making the conscious choice to be as much of a prick as he is, with no influence on Skull's part.
Heinousness?
Even with the GARGANTUAN bar set by Skull? Zola easily clears here. Even before Skull's Empire arose, Zola committed dozens, if not hundreds, of awful experiments that left those who survived pleading for death, and once he allied with the Nazis, his crimes got worse and worse until he now casually orders entire neighborhoods be set aflame and has an island covered in bones and smoke that smells like the burning flesh of millions of innocents he has tortured and killed.
Final Verdict?
I say Keep.
edited 28th Dec '17 10:27:32 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Snoke. Snoke comes off right now as a Generic Doomsday Villain. We have only the vaguest hints on his backstory, we don't know what his actual motives are. I am certain he will be expanded on in later works, but until we know enough about him I don't think he should be added. Palpatine was in a similar position to him, but has a more concrete personality thanks to the prequels/EU and does more personally heinous things so I feel right now Snoke fails the heinous standard for his level of resources along with character. Palps would have the same issue if TV Tropes existed since the late 70s and all that was released about him as Episode V and VI.
Speaking of which, I feel that Palpatine's entries could be simplified. I feel we should have three entries-one documenting his crimes in the movies, one documenting his crimes in the canon EU and one documenting his crimes in the Legends continuity.
Hell yes to both Mana candidates and Zola.
Honestly, I think the reason we don't have more CM incarnations of the guy is due to having his visceral, horrifying villainy toned down to the point that he goes from supervillain Mengele to run-of-the-mill Mad Scientist in most adaptations.
Three points.
1)
to Snoke. I don't think he's a particularly interesting villain, and basically a poor man's Palpatine, but I think he technically meets the requirements of this trope, like Steppenwolf, despite me not having much passion on the subject.
2)
to Manga!Drakonis. I wonder if the version from the original game could count? I remember playing Legend of Mana...twice, in fact. I think he might be the most heinous character from the game (and with no redeeming qualities or Freudian Excuse), if my memory serves me correctly, so I'm not sure anyone else could qualify.
3) People were speculating on who the next Monster from the MCU could be. Honestly, we're only a few episodes into the fifth season of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. but I think we already might have a potential candidate on our hands, though we'll obviously need to wait awhile before their arc concludes. If approved, they might be the first total Canon Foreigner CM in the MCU.EDIT As for Runaways (2017), right now we're 8/10 episodes into the first season, and I can honestly say that it's extremely unlikely anyone will even come close to qualifying.
edited 28th Dec '17 10:51:24 PM by speyeker
Drakonis taken on his own in Legend of Mana wouldn't count... he's got no redeeming qualities but the exact nature as to the sheer destructiveness in his goal isn't as explicit as his manga version, plus he's facing stiff competition from the Lord of Jewels and Irwin — who, although they don't count, still raise the bar.
Adding in his actions from Seiken Densetsu III, though, as the Dragon Emperor? He's almost a surefire keep.
And as one final bit before I begin working on my write-ups....
It has now been two weeks since the Netflix adaptation of ERASED released. Pretty solid overall, and though it didn't hit the high notes of the anime/manga, it was at least faithful to said manga in the major plots.
Which brings me to the villain, Gaku Yashiro. As some of you may remember, Yashiro is a CM in the original manga only. He's a monstrous, twisted serial killer who murders dozens of children to fill a "void" of thrill in his life, and is an all-around petty sadist.
Now, unlike every single other adaptation of the manga? Yashiro actually counts as a CM in the Netflix series, being not only irredeemable like his manga counterpart, but also having an extra crime here and there.
Under most circumstances, I'd say he was worth proposal, however....I unfortunately don't think Live Action!Yashiro warrants an EP. Bar lacking a few of his manga crimes AND having a couple extra crimes, none of which are tremendously more awful than his manga version? Live Action!Yashiro is pretty much the exact same character as he was in the manga, hitting the same personality and overall rapsheet notes as his original version.
So with that in mind, I'd say that, though Yashiro counts in both the manga and Live Action TV versions, we really only need the one entry for the manga version, as they are both almost the exact same character, only the manga one came first.
edited 28th Dec '17 11:18:05 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Alright, have a last proposal for today...
What's the Work?
TheTestamentOfSisterNewDevil is a light novel turned anime series about highschool student Basara Tojo whose father has jus remarried...except Basara is the heir of a tribe of heroes and his new stepsisters Mio and Maria are demons being entrusted to him to protect them...see, Mio's father was the last demon lord and overthrown by an evil conspiracy....Basara forms contracts with them and hijinks ensue. The first villain is a member of the demon council, Zolgia.
Who is Zolgia?
A marquis in the demon world who serves the demon lord who usurped and killed Mio's father. Zolgia attempted to find Mio to use her for his own purposes, which will involve stealing her powers. Mio was relocated secretly to an orphanage where she was raised by kind foster parents. Unfortunately, Zolgia hunted her down, killed her foster parents and destroyed the hometown. A survivor who was raised by the orpnagae owners, a young demon named Lars, would bear intense hatred against him for this. That'll be important later.
Now, Zolgia's real passion? He exploits contracts from others, taking attractive people of either gender and uses said contract to force them into a Lotus-Eater Machine where he breaks their minds and turns them into his obedient sex slaves, which is what he intends for Mio. Even worse? It's explicitly spelled out that Zolgia has a long history of exploiting a succubus attribute pact that belong to other masters, meaning he takes those who have bonded to others and violates them body and soul, which results in him savoring the resulting resulting guilt and trauma to the victim. Yeah.
Zolgia also has a loyal retainer named Zest, a female demon he uses as an abused errand girl. Unknown to her, Zest is completely disposable. Once he's bored with her, he intends to have sex with her (which would remove Zest's powers due to a design flaw he built into her) and replace her with a clone of her. Now, when he learns of Mio's location, Zolgia goes after her more, having her captured and brought to him. Mio manages to escape and the good guys team up against him. Zolgia? Subdues them, intending to rape Mio and her friend Yuki, while trying to murder Zest for her failure, which results in her turning on him.
Zolgia is beaten but manages to slink off, only to run into Lars, whose backstory he doesn't know. Lars reveals why he hates Zolgia and prepares to kill him, only for Zolgia to activate his trump card. His castle? Is actually an Eldritch Abomination monstrosity. Without him to maintain it, it'll attack and destroy the world, which Zolgia gloats about...the heroes manage to stop it and Lars takes Zolgia captive, badly injuring him for his deeds. Someone arrives and Zolgia is gleeful, realizing he might be able to manipulate another demon thanks to their hatred for him...only for it to be Basara, who's only there to confirm his death. Zolgia freaks out, begging for his worthless life, before Lars executes him by exploding his head.
Heinous Standard?
A depraved Serial Rapist to insane levels who breaks the minds of innocent people to serve as obedient playthings, a murderer, a sadist, a horrible boss, and, oh yeah, throw in a bit of Omnicidal Maniac on the side. For a Starter Villain, Zolgia sets the standard and only one or two other villains comes close to him.
Mitigating Qualities?
Know the reason he went along with the plan to overthrow Mio's dad? The guy formed a pact with the Hero Clan, meaning Zolgia couldn't go on violent rampages to boost his standing and ego. Besides that, just...no. Zolgia is a rapist who gets off on hurting his victims emotionally and spiritually, cares nothing for anyone, and his only attitude towards allies is "alliances exist until you can safely stab your partners in the back."
Conclusion?
Keeper, and I'll have another or two villains from this series.
edited 28th Dec '17 11:24:03 PM by Lightysnake
Alright, trip got delayed for a bit. So I can catch up for now.
So catching up:
-
Warlock Lord
-
Phasma
- I'll keep my
to Snoke for now but I'm not against putting him on the wait and see.
-
Red Skull
-
Admin Zola
Manga Drakonis
-
William Afton
zolgia
Also people STOP it with the conversation about Snoke being a GDV. He has a personality just not a detailed backstory. If characters with a personality but no detailed backstory count as a GDV, then guys like Red John and Anita Roycewood will also need to be cut as we never find out why they kill people or there backstory.
edited 28th Dec '17 11:27:37 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Hmm, I was sorta always under the impression that with the exception of SD3 and Heroes of Mana, none of the Mana games are directly linked to each other in terms of a single continuity, but rather are only linked thematically...similar to how the Final Fantasy games have recurring motifs like Moogles, Chocobos, and Cid, but none of the games take place in the same continuity. Thus, Drakonis and the Dragon Emperor are two separate characters operating in two separate universes, much like Thanatos and the Masked Mage.
Mana continuity is enormously frustrating to figure out — as much as Ys if not more so because there's a bunch of weird contradictory stuff thrown in there — but trust me, I've put in hours upon hours of research and playtime at this point... I think the general stance is that it's up to personal interpretation as to whether or not the games have direct continuity with each other or they're all alternate continuities of a sort. To simplify things, me and Lighty are going to treat the series as working with the former and treat Dawn!Stroud and the Dark Prince/Drakonis and the Dragon Emperor as the same characters — which Word of God confirms on both cases, I should note. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure the case could be made for the latter otherwise.
Alright, by the way... looking at things, Phasma's a definite yes and Snoke's completely tied between some yeas, some nays, and people who just want to let the matter rest for a while. I'm completely in the third camp and I think the general indecision is a good sign to let Snoke be until we learn more about him. I'll update the thread on anything we find out about.
edited 28th Dec '17 11:39:59 PM by Scraggle
OK, that's fair, though that isn't what I personally subscribe to, even if my beliefs do go against Word of God. Still, if we do end up proposing future candidates where we have to consider them from multiple games because their actions within a single game are insufficient, I may have to abstain on those proposals, because it does go against my core belief that the games lie within separate continuities...again, even if Word of God has said otherwise. I'm sorry, that's just how I feel.
@Scraggle Sure thing......Right now I'm not sure what kind of topic to cover up in the future and what kind of character do I want to EP on, I'm actually thinking of revisiting Kirby fan comic called Kirby Adventure and an obscure RPG game Seraphic Blue (Which I haven't covered yet cause I'm a lazy guy). But keep in mind that if you want to see some projects that I want to discuss in the future, See the discussion dates though. (I was originally wanted to discuss Overlord but given that Lighty and Miraculous had a good insight on heinous standard.........I decided to drop it)
EDIT: Whoops XD Sorry for misunderstanding the post XD
edited 28th Dec '17 11:46:23 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Hey guy just came back from San Fran
Anywho
To Red Skull
To Admin Zola
To Manga Mana candidate
To William Afton
To zolgia
And a tentative
To Snoke
To recap my previous votes:
Vorrul; abstain on Sultae and Madame B.
Abstaining on Phasma until I finish the novel, hopefully this weekened. But holy hell, she and Snoke are great examples of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character, I say put Snoke on wait-and-see (though he seems like he could EASILY be a contender in the future). BTW, Ravok, you don't need to spend money; just go to your local library
"Oh, the concept of a Force ghost Snoke is amusing... Snoke's torso aimlessly running around into walls like a headless chicken while his disembodied upper half spouts out 'foolish child' to anyone within reach. Preferably with the same stupid look he had on his face after he died."
I NEED THIS TO HAPPEN!!!
Forgive my pedantism, but it was 2000 Marvel trilogy. I checked the date, plus, in case you're wondering why there are no 90s novel incarnations of him, this is from Keith DeCandido. the editor of those 90s novels and the one who confirmed to me on Twitter that they shared a continuity: "(It) was a dictate from on high. Marvel wouldn't let us use Nazis. We could only refer to Strucker as a Prussian war criminal."
to Skull & Zola. A moonbase you say? Already done.
OE: Drafts please.
Afton; Manga!Drakonis; Zolgia.
So Yashiro seems like a case of Curry!Pennywise: He counts, but not enough to stand out.
Scraggle: Will do. I'll just reformat it to include Joker whenever.
Phew! Did I miss anything?

I'll give a "Yes" to Afton as well. And to Phasma.