During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@10265: Monster.Digimon:
- Piedmon: Keep.
- Myotismon: Keep, probably one of the two worst villains in the series.
- Machinedramon: See Millenniummon.
- Devimon: Cut for not being heinous enough.
- Metalseadramon: Cut, for same reason as Devimon.
- IceDevimon: Cut for being a stub.
- D-Reaper: Leaning towards cut because I'm really not sure about its moral agency and whether or not it's fulfilling its function.
- 2nd IceDevimon: Cut for being a stub.
- Lucemon: Keep but with a rewrite.
- Professor Kurata: Keep. He's the second worst villain in the series I was talking about. His entry does need to be condensed though.
- Tactimon: Cut, I don't think he meets the heinous standard.
- NeoVamdemon: Cut, also fails the heinous standard.
- Lilithmon: On-the-fence, not sure if she meets the heinous standard.
- Splashmon: On-the-fence, same reason as above.
- Gravimon: Cut, fails the heinous standard.
- Apollomon Whispered: Cut, if it was designed to be that way it wouldn't have moral agency.
- Milleniummon: While just as Machinedramon I'd say he fails the heinous standard, but if he intended so much destruction by unleashing Apocalymon he may count. And his Zeed incarnation sounds like an Omnicidal Maniac. I would have to know how much of this is the same character across series though.
- Analogman: Cut, stub.
@10273: Good Piedmon write-up.
edited 18th Mar '13 12:08:37 AM by OccasionalExister
What matters is they all opened fire. Will word it as follows: "participates in the murder of Pixiemon."
Final write-up, hopefully:
- Piedmon is the leader and the most powerful of the Dark Masters, leading them in their conquest of the Digital World. A psychopathic Monster Clown, he enjoys toying with his victims before finishing them, in contrast to his more straightforward associates. Reducing his territory to a barren wasteland, he monitors the actions of his fellow Dark Masters and the main cast, allowing his allies to die without ever interfering. He participates in the murder of Pixiemon with the rest of the Dark Masters, kills Chumon himself, nearly kills WarGreymon, then transforms most of the Digi Destined and their Digimon into keychains, which he toys with as he hunts the two youngest members of the team down, intent on keeping them all trapped as toys, forever. He's eventually revealed to be The Man Behind the Man to every major villain in the show, from Devimon through fellow Complete Monster Myotismon, and their actions and those of the other Dark Masters can all be laid at his pointy-shoed feet.
edited 17th Mar '13 11:30:58 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I haven't seen Savers, but from what I can gather fan consensus is unanimous that Professor Kurata is the single most vile entity, man or 'mon, in the entire franchise. I do know that he's the Big Bad of the whole season despite only being the second Arc Villain (the first and last Big Bads only turned evil because of him), and that he subverts Evil Is Not a Toy: at the climax of his arc he summons the demon lord Belphemon, whom any trope-savvy viewer would probably guess will promptly eat him, but... he actually manages to control it.
Here are the current votes for Monster.Bleach examples:
- Grand Fisher Cut: Occasional Exister @10241, Nocturna @10117, Hamburger Time @10137, Serocco @10188, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Grand Fisher Keep: 0
- Metastacia Cut: Occasional Exister @10101, Nocturna @10117, Hamburger Time @10137, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Metastacia Keep: Serocco @10188.
- Shrieker Cut: nrjxll @10276.
- Shrieker Keep: Occasional Exister @10101, Nocturna @10117, Hamburger Time @10137, Serocco @10188, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Numb Chandelier Cut: Nocturna @10117, Hamburger Time @10137, Serocco @10188, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, Occasional Exister @10241, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Numb Chandelier Keep: 0
- Szayel Cut: 0
- Szayel Keep: Occasional Exister @10101, Nocturna @10117, Hamburger Time @10137, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Mayuri Cut: Hodor @10112, Hamburger Time @10137, Iaculus @10198.
- Mayuri Keep: Nocturna @10117, Serocco @10188, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, Occasional Exister @10241, Sophia Lonesoul @10251, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Sosuke Aizen Cut: 0
- Sosuke Aizen Keep: Occasional Exister @10101, Nocturna @10117, Hamburger Time @10137, lightysnake @10142, Serocco @10188, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Kouga Kuchiki Cut: Occasional Exister @10101, Nocturna @10117, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Kouga Kuchiki Keep: Serocco @10188.
- Kageroza Inaba Cut: Occasional Exister @10101, Nocturna @10117, Serocco @10188, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Kageroza Inaba Keep: 0
- Kokuto Cut: Occasional Exister @10101, Septimus Heap 10109, Nocturna @10117, lightysnake @10127, Hodor @10131, Ambar Son of Deshar @10192, Very Melon @10240, nrjxll @10276, Klavice @10285, Nithael 10287.
- Kokuto Keep: Serocco @10188.
So it sounds like Shrieker, Szayel, Mayuri and Aizen are the four keepers while everyone else gets cut. Will wait another day before making the cuts.
EDIT:
Added, thanks. Also, sorry for not commenting sooner but I liked your Naraku write-up.
EDIT: Results altered to reflect votes as of 3/15.
edited 15th Mar '13 1:56:54 PM by OccasionalExister
@10261: On Mnemosyne, I agree with Lightysnake that Laura should go and Sayara and Apos should be kept. Apos and Sayara are uniquely heinous, disturbing people, while Laura is just a cut and dry murderer. I... was also under the impression that the aforementioned immortal woman that Apos tortured over a game of chess was connected to Laura or something? Not sure about that, but if so, god knows what's going on in her mind.
@10265 - Digimon examples - Alright...
- First series: Everyone but Piedmon and Myotismon should go.
- Second series: The Myotismon entries should be fused.
- Third series: Don't think that much of IceDevimon; he's a memorable Monster of the Week, but he's still hamstrung by that status and by the fact that he's in the same series as the D-Reaper. As for the D-Reaper... I think this is the most borderline case here, so let's present this one in its entirety.
The D-Reaper is programmed to monitor the progress of the Digital World and delete anything that exceeded a volume in order to prevent the Digital World from overloading. The main problem is that, in canon, it was designed in the 1980's, so that aforementioned volume is infinitesimal by modern standards. At some point, it went dormant and ended up mutating into an apocalyptic juggernaut that stumbles upon the human world. It proceeds to study humankind via subjecting Jeri, the resident 11-year old Stepford Smiler who was involved in an unrelated traumatizing event immediately beforehand, to Mind Rape. It effectively decides that humanity not only falls under the aforementioned criteria for deletion, but also decides that humans are bastards and Digimon exist to be weaponized, etc. I can't really remember how it goes about exterminating humanity all that well, but I think its ultimate M.O. is to generate natural disasters in order to destabilize and eventually drive humanity to extinction; its main strategy in the duration of the show is increasing the global temperature beyond the threshold humanity could withstand, with the added effect of melting the polar ice caps.
The main issue with moral agency comes with its personality, which I think is radically different between the original Japanese track and the English dub. I didn't watch much of the original Japanese (only the last few episodes), but the D-Reaper has a completely monotone voice and presents its machinations in a more formalized, impersonal way. Based on what I've seen of the sub alone, I would argue that the D-Reaper lacked moral agency and should be cut. The main problem is with the English dub, where the D-Reaper actually does emote in the closing episodes, and while it still speaks in a formal way, it possesses a tone of voice that is more direct with its contempt and disgust with humanity. Notably, after the Mind Rape it subjected to Jeri, it speaks of her "contributions" to the D-Reaper's research with a pleased, almost smug tone. It actually sounds like a legit character who is satisfied by its attempts to exterminate humanity as opposed to this semi-mindless creature.
Other notable details with the dubbed version's characterization: it actually does begin as a blank slate in terms of personality; it seems to become much more malicious and "human" as the final arc progresses. The Mind Rape it inflicts is less out of cruelty and more because it needs to research humanity and is so grossly evolved that it can't directly understand humanity at that point. Given how mechanical this thing is, it might be likely that its malice is not inherent and that it simply comes from the D-Reaper not liking what it sees of humanity and adjusting its mindset accordingly. Immediately after its defeat, a narration from a major character seems to be under the impression that the D-Reaper was effectively just following its programming, so it doesn't seem like the dub explicitly wanted to radically change how the D-Reaper's motives were perceived.
I don't know whether to say cut or keep. In a vacuum, the Japanese audio track wouldn't be a keeper and the English track might be. I'll just throw this out and see what you guys think. Also, oh god I just rambled at length about a villain from a cartoon for kids.
- Fourth series: never watched this in its entirety. Not impressed by this IceDevimon either.
- Fifth series: Kurata is a keeper.
- Sixth series: never watched, but from the sound of things, this series just has a bunch of nasty villains in general and that none of them really seem to stand out amongst each other. Also read that Lilithmon does actually genuinely like her companion, so that sounds like a 99% monster right there.
- Other: Not sure about Millenniummon. Analogman is a total excuse villain who exists exclusively the serve as the final boss in two games (Digimon World and an associated card game); he's so far away from this that I would almost bet money that the person who added him never played either of the games he appeared in.
edited 15th Mar '13 1:55:46 AM by AquaRegia
A while back, we removed Martha Vist Carbine from the Monster/Gundam page on the grounds of 'we haven't seen her reach quite the same levels of evil as other Gundam villains yet, so let's wait and see'. I feel I should provide the thread with an update on her - namely, that she's out of the running, since Episode 6 gave her a fairly solid Freudian Excuse.
Turns out that the family-run Vist Foundation had a pretty severe case of Cain and Abel going on - its founder, Syam Vist, killed her grandfather in what is implied to be one of numerous 'organisational reshuffles' (with different perpetrators each time, I should note - Syam wasn't responsible for all his family's sins by a long shot). This turned her against his branch of the family, leaving her with the primary motive of sabotaging their attempts to give the MacGuffin, Laplace's Box, to the world. I should also note here that releasing Laplace's Box rather than destroying it is a kind of morally-grey decision, resulting in what would likely be massive social upheaval rather than an oppressive status quo. As a result, weighing up the pros and cons and deciding to oppose it for selfish, personal reasons isn't such a bad thing.
What's precedent ever done for us?Just a quick question. Can a villain in a Fan Fic qualify as a CM if they're an OC?
In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.Fan Fic here counts as a separate work.
And I have no idea what OC means.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanBesides, the "canon" characters are OCs to the creators of the work, technically speaking (maybe save adaptations of RL people, depending on specific circumstances).
I bring that up because I saw the CMs Fan Works page.
... hooooh boy
. I smell a massive rewrite. Granted, I'd prefer to focus on the other pages before tackling this one.
edited 15th Mar '13 9:09:15 AM by Serocco
In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.Personally, I don't see a problem with darkfic, I actually find it interesting when it's done well since I like seeing how characters from lighter works deal with more mature themes (As in actually mature, darkness for the sake of darkness is just bad writing.), the problem is when people think dark= alwaysbetter, when that's not exactly the case.
Anyway, with that tangent over, I agree that the MLP fics could use a subpage.
Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.

Having now read the Bleach page in question (and having finished shaking in horror over how badly written it is), I've come to the conclusion that Mayuri Kurotsuchi counts, as do Aizen and Szayel. I don't think anyone else there really approaches the heinousness standard.