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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#10251: Mar 14th 2013 at 5:39:31 PM

With regards to Mayuri Kurotsuchi: Who the author wants the audience to cheer for isn't relevant to CM status. Mayuri has plenty of onscreen heinousness, no redeeming characteristics and as it has been pointed out is not morally better than Sayzel. I vote for keep.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#10252: Mar 14th 2013 at 5:39:47 PM

[up][up][up] Well, the universe would've imploded if he didn't do that...

Anyway, I personally think Soul Society!Mayuri was Early-Installment Weirdness but I can see I'm outvoted. I definitely think both he and Aizen will have to go by the end, though.

edited 14th Mar '13 5:40:16 PM by HamburgerTime

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10253: Mar 14th 2013 at 5:43:05 PM

[up]If that happens, it happens. In all honesty, I think Aizen's got a better shot at redemption that Kurotsuchi does, if only because he's a more recent character. Kubo tends to let others fall by the wayside.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10254: Mar 14th 2013 at 5:44:20 PM

Ok, I'm a bit tired of this. What possibly has been given to us to show that egomaniac, sociopath son of a bitch has even the smallest chance of a redeeming factor being assigned to him?

I don't think so low of Tite Kubo to say he's gotten Aizen rammed a sword through the guts of the girl who idolized and loved him more than anything, and then had her best, beloved friend stab through her before taunting him about it, or that he gleefully thought about murdering Ichigo's friends to creatively display the corpses to get a rise out of them without any remorse, regret or anything resembling an ounce of positive trait.

edited 14th Mar '13 5:47:16 PM by Lightysnake

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#10255: Mar 14th 2013 at 5:46:45 PM

[up] His final rant to Urahara gave me the impression that he thinks the universe itself screwed him over somehow and so he wants to take it out on the Soul King. "How can you possibly defend that... thing!?" To my ears, those sound like the words of someone deeply wronged somehow. So, basically, he's Lucifer.

edited 14th Mar '13 5:47:38 PM by HamburgerTime

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10256: Mar 14th 2013 at 5:48:34 PM

Remember the key part of his rant: "Winners change the world, losers see it how it is!"

Aizen isn't taking out pent up frustration or sadness. he was quite clear with the speech about "the throne at the top is empty. I will fill it!" He wants to be a god. He considers the Soul King some sort of creature unworthy of its position while he views Urahara as a despicable loser for adhering to the status quo.

this doesn't mean he's wronged, it means he views the Soul King/Kisuke Urahara with contempt and scorn

edited 14th Mar '13 5:49:14 PM by Lightysnake

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#10257: Mar 14th 2013 at 5:52:47 PM

[up] You have your interpretation, I have mine. And until we know more, that's all it is at the moment.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10258: Mar 14th 2013 at 6:01:41 PM

Well Aizen easily could think he's been wronged. It's just a question of if he actually has been, or if it's the sociopath's "nobody bows to me" sort of feeling you've been wronged. I wonder if we'll actually find out, or if that's another plot thread Kubo will just drop.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#10259: Mar 14th 2013 at 6:10:04 PM

[up] Kubo's actually starting to tie stuff up now, believe it or not. It really seems like more planning went into this story than most of the fandom thought.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10261: Mar 14th 2013 at 6:25:33 PM

Let me propose more examples to burn:

Blade Of The Immortal has Shira, who's a clear keeper. Others listed:

  • Anotsu Kagehisa's grandfather responds to a girl rescuing his grandson by stringing her up from a tree, bleeding and beaten, to be devoured by packs of wild dogs.
  • Hyakurin's husband slices his own 8-year-old son in half, because the boy was too weak to swing a sword and killed his own infant daughter simply because she was a girl.
  • Interestingly, Araya Kawakami is a subversion: he used to be a depraved bastard and is now desperately trying to bury the past so his son never knows what he really is - and he's willing to murder anyone, who gets in the way of that. He does manage, despite his crimes, to retain a measure of sympathy.

Subversion. Cut.

The other two...I think they utterly pale next to Shira. Hyakurin's husband might, MIGHT be a consideration.

Mnemosyne has a mess of a section.

  • Apos from Mnemosyne ranks up there with Johan in sheer wickedness and depravity (being a fellow blond bishounen doesn't help either). Listing all of his sickening acts would probably fill up the page and then some. The most memorable would be his games of "torture chess" with dismembered immortal women or when he brutally rapes Mimi purely out of boredom. His motivation for everything he does is that he likes the taste of his victims' suffering.

  • The cyborg Laura is an extremely unsympathetic character as well. Every single chance she gets, she attempts to murder Rin, even though the latter has done and is doing nothing to her. After Rin loses her memories, Laura takes on her appearance and begins murdering other Immortals, including a UN Soldier protecting a little kid, the fact she doesn't care about in the last. The moment Rin accepts her fiancee's proposal of marriage, Laura mercilessly guns him down. Even though she gets pathetic later, she is still an extremely, utterly unpleasant individual, who lives just to kill people.
  • Sayara Yamanobe, second only to Apos, is a repulsive, callous scientist, who masterminded the cloning program that killed the original Koki Maeno. She keeps the failed test subjects as ravenous, flesh-eating zombies that suffer every moment they're alive. When she has Rin in her care, Sayara proceeds to molest and then torture her to death while it's more than just implied that she molested and raped Koki as well, also being hinted this is routine for her. Sayara later just attempts to wipe out all human life and she would be the morally lowest character in any other series, so it says a lot about Apos that he's the lowest, the most depraved and the most disturbing one in Mnemosyne.

Laura should be cut. she's nowhere near the other two. Sayara is a keeper, even if Apos is the worst, but dear god, does he need a rewrite. It's also far from 'implied' she molested the original Koki Maeno: the clone Koki has a flash of brief memories showing her doing that, and she very clearly molests the clone when he's back with her

edited 14th Mar '13 6:28:32 PM by Lightysnake

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#10262: Mar 14th 2013 at 6:28:20 PM

[up] I don't know the setting, but it must be pretty damn dark if that first guy is too bog-standard to qualify; dude sounds like he wouldn't be out of place in Berserk...

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10263: Mar 14th 2013 at 6:31:15 PM

It has to do with family pride. He was furious his grandson had been shown up by a mere girl. That said, Anotsu's grandfather was a horrible guy, but he doesn't scream 'irredeemable evil.' I should note that this was a flashback and the girl survived

The villains aren't even altogether too horrible as a whole...even the worst have some redeeming qualities (like Kuroi Sabato, who keeps the preserved heads of the two women he loves sewn to his shoulders but has real honor, is too fracking crazy to realize they don't want to be murdered and taxidermy'd by him and cares about some others)....Hyakurin's husband was just a prick who cared more about having a strong son than anything and coldly said to his wife "you'll bear me another" after he sliced her son in half in front of him.

This is Shira's entry

He murders a Hooker with a Heart of Gold who was just in the business to pay for her mother's medicine, because he enjoys cutting up women and making their muscles seize up during sex. After that, he savagely, gleefully tortures an assassin with his saw-edged sword and severs the leg of the unarmed woman that led him and Rin to the trap. A

Problem is Shira who sets the bar so flipping high.

edited 14th Mar '13 6:37:55 PM by Lightysnake

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#10264: Mar 14th 2013 at 6:43:43 PM

@10260: That'll teach me for drinking something while reading these forums.

@10261: I was actually thinking of bringing those Blade Of The Immortal examples up with you. I agree with cutting all of them save Shira (first two for failing the heinous standard, the last for having good qualities and loved ones).

I agree Apos needs a rewrite. Whenever someone says, "Listing everything would fill up half the page." I always translate that to, "I am far too lazy to do it myself but I still want him on the page."

edited 14th Mar '13 6:45:27 PM by OccasionalExister

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10265: Mar 14th 2013 at 7:07:37 PM

I mentioned this a few pages back, but it got lost in the shuffle. The subpage for, of all things, Digimon, needs a serious clean up. Quite some time ago, a few of the examples were discussed. I remember it happening. Unfortunately, there's been so much nattering about that show and this trope elsewhere on the site (plus, the characters are called monsters) that locating the particular conversation has proven more trouble than its worth.

Going over the page, I would say keep Piedmon and Myotismon from the original show, and cut the other examples. I believe that it was agreed, in fact, that we should keep those two and cut Devimon and the other Dark Masters before. In fact that was the only conversation I could locate. Thoughts?

For the sequel, again, keep Myotismon, who hasn't changed at all. No issues there.

From Digimon Tamers, I've got serious questions about the moral agency of the D-Reaper, and nothing on the page helps. Icedevimon is a stub.

Digimon Frontier: Icedevimon stub again. Lucemon might need expansion, but I think can make the cut.

Haven't seen Savers. Kurata sounds like he counts, but compression please.

Not familiar with the rest at all. There's a lot listed for Xros Wars, which makes me think some have to go.

From other—Analogmon is a stub. Milleniummon sounds like he might qualify.

I'll note to everyone that this is a kid's show, albeit one with a bodycount, so I wonder if the page needs even more serious trimming than I've recommended here.

edited 14th Mar '13 7:09:45 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#10266: Mar 14th 2013 at 7:13:18 PM

[up] Definitely cut Devimon (fairly generic Starter Villain, him) and MetalSeadramon; the only crime of his listed is killing someone (Whamon) directly opposing him. Machinedramon I think should also go, as about the only time he goes beyond standard villainy is when he kills all thousand or so Numemon in one shot, which was admittedly disturbing for a kids' show but CM? I doubt it.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10267: Mar 14th 2013 at 7:17:55 PM

[up]Agreed. Piedmon and Myotismon are both worse than Machinedramon. And honestly, I think both of their entries need rewrites. I don't remember much about Myotismon, beyond what's on the page, but I have a good memory of what Piedmon did. Lemme give this a try.

The original entry:

  • Piedmon is a psychotic Monster Clown who doesn't give a damn about life at all. He ruthlessly kills a large amount of the team's allies in brutal ways, and when the Digidestined finally face him down, he savagely beats them down before turning them into living keychains for him to toy with. The sequence where he hunts down the kids and their digimon one by one before transforming them, all while laughing with sadistic glee and mocking the two youngest team members (who he saves for last) is surprisingly frightening.

My write-up

  • Piedmon is the leader and the most powerful of the Dark Masters, leading them in their conquest of the Digital World. A psychopathic Monster Clown, he enjoys toying with his victims before finishing them, in contrast to his more straightforward associates. Reducing his territory to a barren wasteland, he monitors the actions of his fellow Dark Masters and the main cast, allowing his allies to die without ever interfering. He nearly kills WarGreymon, then transforms most of the Digi Destined and their Digimon into keychains, which he toys with as he hunts the two youngest members of the team down, intent on keeping them all trapped as toys, forever.

I can't help but feel there's something missing here, but I don't recall which, if any of the kids' allies he actually killed (which the original entry claims). Anyone? I'd still say he qualifies, since the actions of the other Dark Masters are all on him, and even Myotismon never a) reduced a vibrant world to a wasteland, or b) subjected someone to an And I Must Scream scenario like the keychain thing. Also, if I recall right, there's a flashback or something which shows he's The Man Behind the Man to post of the show's villains. I didn't include that because I wasn't sure if that was in side materials or the show proper.

edited 14th Mar '13 8:26:28 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#10268: Mar 14th 2013 at 7:28:26 PM

Can someone give me an actual link to the Bleach subpage in discussion? It would make things more convenient.

[down]Thanks.

edited 14th Mar '13 7:38:12 PM by nrjxll

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10269: Mar 14th 2013 at 7:31:03 PM

[up]Here you go: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Monster/Bleach

@10261

Sayara and Apos sound like keepers. What all does Apos do, because I concur he needs a rewrite there.

edited 14th Mar '13 7:41:18 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10270: Mar 14th 2013 at 7:48:11 PM

Okee dokee...Apos is the secret sponsor of Sayara's research, he's the one who sends Laura after Rin to begin with... Among other things, Apos:

Brutally tortures an immortal woman in a game of chess, adding a sword into her every time she loses a piece.

He's a hunter of immortal women and rapes, tortures and finally, devours them and their memories (the suffering improves the taste). he kills or has multiple immortals killed. He also has a nuclear explosion set off to start a hunt against immortals and kick off a world war,,,he planned to send out the time fruits (when one enters your body, you becom immortal if you're a woman, you turn into a ravenous monster called an Angel if you're a man) all over the world, so he could devour everyone at his own leisure (when asked what he wants with the world, he responds: I want to TASTE IT.

He impaled and killed his own father, he turned the heroine's ex lover into an angel and sicced him on her so she'd be forced to kill him in self defense. He betrays Laura and has the Angels sent to kill her, and also rapes her out of lust towards the heroine (he had her disguised as Rin).

And lest I forget he also raped the heroine's girlfriend/best friend Mimi solely because Rin was taking too long to reach them and he had to entertain himself. He also did this after he crucified her to a pillar

edited 14th Mar '13 7:48:39 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10271: Mar 14th 2013 at 7:52:51 PM

[up]Sounds like a charmer. Hash out a rewrite and it's got my vote.

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#10272: Mar 14th 2013 at 8:22:07 PM

I only remember Piedmon killing Chumon and Pixiemon, and the latter was done offscreen with the other Dark Masters.

As for Piedmon being the guy behind basically everything that happened in Adventure 01, it was shown in an episode.

edited 14th Mar '13 8:25:50 PM by rmctagg09

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10273: Mar 14th 2013 at 8:26:10 PM

[up]Will add that. I think being responsible for every awful thing in-series gets you some CM points. Are we just told Pixiemon is dead, or is it more Gory Discretion Shot?

  • Piedmon is the leader and the most powerful of the Dark Masters, leading them in their conquest of the Digital World. A psychopathic Monster Clown, he enjoys toying with his victims before finishing them, in contrast to his more straightforward associates. Reducing his territory to a barren wasteland, he monitors the actions of his fellow Dark Masters and the main cast, allowing his allies to die without ever interfering. He kills Chumon, nearly kills WarGreymon, then transforms most of the Digi Destined and their Digimon into keychains, which he toys with as he hunts the two youngest members of the team down, intent on keeping them all trapped as toys, forever. He's eventually revealed to be The Man Behind the Man to every major villain in the show, from Devimon through Myotismon, and their actions and those of the other Dark Masters can all be laid at his pointy-shoed feet.

edited 14th Mar '13 9:06:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#10274: Mar 14th 2013 at 8:29:51 PM

[up] There's a big explosion and then we never see him again.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10275: Mar 14th 2013 at 8:37:35 PM

[up]Was he killed in the explosion? I'm just trying to figure out which one (Offscreen Villainy or Gory Discretion Shot) it is so that I can decide whether it goes in Piedmon's write-up or not.


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