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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#10101: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:43:26 AM

[up][up]You know I agree. Grand Fischer shouldn't count. In fact, I'd like to go through the list on Monster.Bleach:

  • Grand Fischer: Cut. He fails the heinous standard as he only killed Ichigo's mom onscreen and tried to kill Ichigo's sisters and that reeks of Protagonist-Centered Morality.
  • Metastacia: Cut. Also fails the heinous standard since he only killed two people.
  • Shrieker: Keep. He's the only Hollow that wasn't forcibly turned evil, he was a Serial Killer in life and is the only Hollow who gets sent to hell for the crimes he comitted while alive. Plus, his transformation into a Hollow doesn't seem to have altered his personality since his killings as a Hollow are similar to his killings as a human.
  • Numb Chandelier: On-the-fence. She sounds far more sadistic than Fischer and Metastacia (she's the only one that I'm aware of who plans on subjecting her victims to rape) but I'm not sure she has moral agency due to the fact that souls who don't pass on tend to become Hollows by their spirits being corrupted over years.
  • Szayel Aporro Granz: Keep. Easily one of the most sadistic characters in the series.
  • Mayuri Kurotsuchi: On-the-fence. He's pretty monstrous in his first appearance but he seems to have undergone Characterization Marches On as he's portrayed as less of a monster, more of a Comedic Sociopath. Also he had a I Did What I Had to Do moment by exterminating 28,000 residents of the Soul Society to stabilize the dimensional balance.
  • Sosuke Aizen: Keep, though his entry needs to be seriously condensed.
  • Kouga Kuchiki: Cut. Not only do I immensely doubt the entry's statement that he's worse than Griffith, but he also fails the heinous standard since his only deed listed is turning his dragon into a monster and displays a Lack of Empathy over it.
  • Kageroza Inaba: Cut. I think Nocturna brought up reasons on why he doesn't count. Has questionable moral agency as he's only half of a person trying to get whole again, he gets an Alas, Poor Villain and he doesn't sound heinous enough.
  • Kokuto: Cut. He still loves his sister.

edited 14th Mar '13 11:52:13 AM by OccasionalExister

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#10102: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:52:25 AM

Cut Inaba for sure. Keep Aizen and Szayel for sure.

Grand Fisher was the reason Ichigo Used to Be a Sweet Kid. Grand Fisher damn-near ruined that entire family by killing the mother. Also note how he tried to cannibalize Ichigo when he was a kid and how he chocked a pre-teen to near death.

Metastacia did not simply "kill" two people. He imposed Demonic Possession on Kaien, which forced Rukia to kill her mentor in a Mercy Kill. Prior to the DP, Kaien looked like this. After it, he turned into that.

I'd say Kouga's a keep. Griffith was legitimately going through hell and back, and his compatriots were actually considering abandoning him last I checked. With Kouga, he betrayed his most loyal subordinate even after learning that Muramasa wasn't responsible for his capture and tried to free him. Turning his dragon into a monster also meant that he spawned an army of The Heartless to overrun an island, prompting the military (or the closest equivalent) to intervene, so there's that.

Keep Kokuto, I'd say. Caring about his sister doesn't change the fact that the disemboweled somebody elses' sister. Plus, he was sent to Hell after murdering the killer of his sister - which makes it clear that he was still in the wrong for taking revenge.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:01:55 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#10103: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:55:08 AM

Officially, site policy is what guides the creation of subpages, not anything voted upon here.

Whenever a page hits a certain length (I don't recall offhand; I'm sure it's covered somewhere on the forum), that's when a page is split. Not "when a series has at least 3 examples;" the page will have to be bloated enough to require a split before a new subpage is made.

Now, once a page hits that point, a given work has to have at least 3 examples in order to get a subpage. But since none of the pages are big enough to require splits as of now, there's no need to make any new subpages.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10104: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:55:50 AM

[up][up]Not worse than Griffith. Griffith damned the souls of his companions—who had just saved his miserable life—to Hell, and raped his right hand woman. And that's in addition to the other crap he's done

You still don't get this trope. If he cares about his sister he can't stay here. That's a redeeming trait. And the crap about him going to Hell is just bad writing.

[up][up][up]Agree with most of those cuts and keeps. On the subject of Kuortsuchi though, I think we should keep him. The author has tried to turn him comedic, but failed horribly.

edited 14th Mar '13 11:56:39 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10105: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:57:57 AM

While there isn't a hard-and-fast page splitting by size policy, 3 examples are well below it. A split is necessary if the Monster/ page shows up here.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#10106: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:00:32 PM

[up][up] That's not a redeeming trait as far as the writing itself is concerned. If he cares about his sister, but still gets sent to Hell after avenging her murder, that is a deliberate case of the writers saying "Fuck this guy."

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10107: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:01:49 PM

[up]It means the writers were sending a message he went too far. Still a redeeming trait. Still gets him cut.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#10108: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:02:47 PM

I fail to see why "Oh, he cared about his sister" whitewashes his deliberate disembowelment of someone elses' sister, whom was barely in her pre-teens.

In the end, he was sent to hell for avenging the murder of his sister, but he spends his time escaping Hell by selling out the people that went there to help him. He murdered Ichigo's sister specifically to piss him off.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:04:06 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10109: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:04:25 PM

He cared for his sister? Sorry, not 99% Monsters in this trope. Cut him.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#10110: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:06:16 PM

A sister who never appeared on screen, at that. A sister who was never shown, never named, never talked about apart from a Motive Rant meant to show how psychotic he turned by then.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:06:48 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#10111: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:06:54 PM

[up][up]Yup.

As I said recently, "but he's really bad" is not a reason to break the rules.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:07:33 PM by nrjxll

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#10112: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:07:47 PM

Re Mayuri, I don't watch the show/read the manga, but doesn't he fight on the side of the heroes- I would think that would probably disqualify him (question- is he ever actually shown doing things benefiting the heroes, or does he just happen to be on the same team?)

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10113: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:08:11 PM

[up][up][up]Yet it still makes him better than Aizen, Kurotsuci, Shreiker, Sayzel, and the rest of the competition. So no dice.

[up]Kurotsuchi is only on their side because he's a soul reaper, and is given the chance to do things like experiment on whole races of people.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:09:08 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10114: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:11:00 PM

Unless there is strong evidence that it's a lie, I am not going to ignore a Motive Rant when judging a Complete Monster example. And no amount of heinousness can overcome the 99% Monster counter-argument anyway; the two metrics are distinct.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#10115: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:11:24 PM

It only makes him "better" because he happened to care enough about his sister to avenge her death. He's still a selfish asshole who forced his friend (at the time) into the same scenario that he went through prior to his entering into hell.

Oh, Mayuri? In the backstory, he's essentially Josef Mengele with a white mask. Talked about how he forced parents to murder their kids.

Present-story, he taunted ishida over his torture and murder of his grandfather. He turned his men into unwilling suicide bombs in the present story. Used his daughter as a Human Shield during a fight and kicked her in the place she was injured when she asked for help.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:13:16 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10116: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:13:00 PM

"The writing says otherwise. The fact that he even went to Hell, like Shrieker, should be a clue there. " is too weak to overcome the 99% monster argument. Show, Don't Tell and all that-

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#10117: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:13:12 PM

re: Bleach subpage: Agree for the most part with Occasional Exister, with notes/exceptions below:

  • Mestastacia: Serocco, Nightmare Fuel =/= Complete Monster. He doesn't go beyond normal Hollow behavior. It's just his modus operandi that's more horrifying than most.
  • Numb Chandelier: Also borderline, leaning towards cut. Most Hollows don't torture (they just kill outright), but she has less on-screen (and strikes me as less sadistic) than Shrieker, and the two are at comparable power levels.
  • Szayel: This thread has already vetted him.
  • Mayuri Kurotsuchi: Inclined towards keep. He's approximately equivalent to Szayel in terms of cruelty, despite being nominally on the good side. I don't think his sadism is sufficiently softened enough to disqualify him; however, I can see how someone might argue that his later appearances are intended more for laughs than drama. (I don't agree, but I'm not generally fond of Black Comedy, and I hate Kurotsuchi with a burning passion, so I'm also probably not the most unbiased of judges.)
  • Kouga: Clear cut. He's heartless, but he's on approximately the same power level as Szayel or Kurotsuchi (with aspirations/self-opinion of Aizen-levels), and he fails to match up to either of them in heinousness by miles, not least because he has at least an understandable (but not sufficient) Freudian Excuse, which the other two don't.
  • Kokuto: Clear cut. Awful guy, but as mentioned previously, he cares for his sister, and we're given no real reason to doubt the sincerity of that.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#10118: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:13:19 PM

[up][up][up]The fact that he went the Hell doesn't sound like it would necessarily prove anything, because all that proves is that his bad qualities outnumbered the good ones, not that he lacked any good qualities.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:13:49 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#10119: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:14:40 PM

[up][up] His MO was Demonic Possession. I used the imagery not for Nightmare Fuel, but as a visceral example of how horrific the results are with him.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:15:54 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10120: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:15:50 PM

That doesn't address the 99% Monster issue. I do not care about the existence of the 99% bit, I care about the 1% bit.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#10121: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:17:00 PM

Septimus: And there's no reason to doubt that that 1% of genuinely caring for his sister is there.

[up][up] "Horrific results" is not enough to make a Complete Monster. "Horrific results" are (primarily) Nightmare Fuel.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:17:53 PM by Nocturna

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#10122: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:18:08 PM

[up] Horrific results of his modus operandi. Come on, I thought I made it clear what I was talking about.

I don't care about the 1% due to the clear Motive Decay. He wanted to escape hell because he felt he was wrongly imprisoned for getting revenge. His way of doing it involved befriending somebody so it could sting more once he murdered their sister. Also killed Uryu and Renji, and paraded their rotting corpses on pikes, to screw with Ichigo's head. By the end, it wasn't about his sister anymore. It was about himself.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:19:48 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#10123: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:19:52 PM

I don't care about the 1%

Then you frankly should not be participating in this thread.

Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#10124: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:19:55 PM

The 1% means he's not a Complete Monster. A Complete Monster cannot have any redeeming qualities, at all. Period.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10125: Mar 14th 2013 at 12:20:49 PM

Serocco? When you get your example contested on the basis that it's a 99% Monster, you need to prove that the good bit is either fake or doesn't exist at all. A single good quality is incompatible with Complete Monster status.

None of your arguments so far affect this.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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