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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#10076: Mar 14th 2013 at 4:42:41 AM

9968: I only spoiler what was spoiled in the original write up.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#10078: Mar 14th 2013 at 8:29:29 AM

We cover Obliviously Evil in the FAQ.

What if they do something that they didn't intend?: Generally, this doesn't count. What was done by accident is not enough. However, if the character finds out what they did by accident and is shown to be pleased at what happened, they may still qualify for that action.

This is specifically to keep out both accidents as well as petty villains who end up causing more destruction and atrocity than they intended. That said, it also leaves open someone who follows up a Heel Realization with Then Let Me Be Evil.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#10079: Mar 14th 2013 at 8:59:31 AM

I think the no groups ban is a little too restrictive, though I do understand the focus on the worst of a group.

Now, on-topic. I think Blackfire - who is also listed as a CM - should be removed. Yeah, she conquered her planet and all, but she never really seemed to mistreat her fellow Tameraneans (god knows the actual spelling). I think there was something about how she sent her sister to be enslaved by mercenaries, but that was never mentioned in the show itself.

Also, since Slade is a lock to the list, I think you should change the description to make it less like a summary of his character history and more like an actual laundry list of atrocities.

edited 14th Mar '13 9:01:40 AM by Sledgesaul

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10080: Mar 14th 2013 at 9:08:32 AM

why is Blackfire still on there? We voted to cut her ages ago.

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#10081: Mar 14th 2013 at 9:09:42 AM

Oh, I just saw she's been cut. All righty then.

But yes, Slade in the main CM page? That description needs work. It sounds more like a summary than an actual laundry list of his atrocities.

edited 14th Mar '13 9:22:34 AM by Sledgesaul

Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#10082: Mar 14th 2013 at 9:52:08 AM

Why did Xehanort get cut from the Complete monster page? I thought it was established that he was a douche who only had like a "pet the dog" moment in choosing a place for someone to die but several other Kick the Dog moments which involve destroying hundreds of worlds.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10083: Mar 14th 2013 at 9:57:34 AM

Looks like he wasn't moved to Video Games when Kingdom Hearts was cut.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#10084: Mar 14th 2013 at 9:59:31 AM

[up]

No he wasn't. -_-

edited 14th Mar '13 10:00:00 AM by Couchpotato20

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10085: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:04:45 AM

Well, since I brought up that page a long time ago, I do not recall anybody opposing his inclusion (An impression enforced by a Google search), so you just need to draft a good entry and then ask for it to be added to Monster.Video Games. It also needs adding to the Video Game Monsters sandbox.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#10086: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:08:15 AM

[up]

Goddammit

I can't think of a good one other than the one that was put in before. Can't you use history option and bring back the other one in the Kingdom Hearts entry to add to Video Games?

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#10087: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:10:53 AM

[up]There's already an entry for Xehanort on the Sandbox.Video Game Monsters. Here it is:

  • Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts is responsible, both indirectly and directly, for all the hardships the main characters suffer and the creation of the three main villains that are destroying the worlds. The secret reports in Birth By Sleep paint him as a well-meaning person ready to resort to extreme solutions of unleashing the Heartless and the Unversed in order to flood the universe with darkness and thus bring about perfect balance between light and darkness, but as of the game, he's clearly run so far beyond the line of inexcusable acts that any good intentions he once had are long gone. He takes Ven, an eleven-year-old child, in as an apprentice with the sole intention of training him to use the darkness and stealing his body. When Ven proves himself not to be up to the task, he forcibly extracts Ven's darkness, leaving him comatose, then drops his apprentice's failing body off in his own much-hated homeworld to die. After realizing Ven isn't going to die, he gives him to his fellow Keyblade Master Eraqus, a man whom he considers to be a brother, to train until Ven's light grows strong enough that he can be forcibly reunited with his darkness and become a weapon that will allow its wielder to reshape the entire world. While he's there, he notices Eraqus's student, Terra, and immediately decides that he wants Terra's body. Through a complex series of manipulations, Xehanort arranges Terra to fight Eraqus to the death, and finishes off Eraqus himself after Eraqus is weakened. He is even willing to risk an apocalypse out of sheer curiosity. Eventually Xehanort willingly splits himself into two beings: his Heartless, "Ansem", which possesses Riku and manipulates a cartel of Disney villains from behind the scenes, and his Nobody, "Xenmas", which manipulates the members of Organization XIII and later plans on killing all of them once they've outlived their usefulness.

[up][up]Since most of the subpages are cleaned up, the Monster.Video Games page can probably be swapped out for the Sandbox. Quick question before I request it though: Diablo, World Of War Craft, and Zone Of The Enders all have three entries or more. Should I make subpages for them?

edited 14th Mar '13 10:12:05 AM by OccasionalExister

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10088: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:14:09 AM

Is there a pressing reason to create subpages? I don't think so.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#10089: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:14:52 AM

[up]

@Occasional Exister

Looked at it and I think it's great. However, I believe that Dream Drop Distance The Reveal behind the formation of Organization XIII being about turning its members into clones of himself should be included as well. That and him bragging about the fates of the Birth By Sleep trio while doing a Slouch of Villainy.

edited 14th Mar '13 10:18:46 AM by Couchpotato20

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10090: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:22:07 AM

Yes, make subpages for those entries, OE

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10091: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:26:56 AM

To clarify my stance on subpages: I do not want Monster/ subpages unless the main pages become too large. Subpages even more than examples have a "Medal Of Honor" vibe that we do not want with Complete Monster.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#10092: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:43:20 AM

[up]Understood. I just didn't know if there was a rule that three entries or more automatically necessitated a subpage.

@10089: I can add that part about the clones, but is it really necessary to add the bragging? It seems like the entry already proves he's a monster without that.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10093: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:44:54 AM

Of course, I am articulating an opinion, not a policy. I am not aware of an auto-split policy with regards to CM though.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#10094: Mar 14th 2013 at 10:58:39 AM

Where is the search bar for previous discussions?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10095: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:00:26 AM

"https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok <example you are searching the discussion of>" in the Google Site Search.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#10096: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:01:47 AM

10091: What do you mean "'Medal of Honor' vibe"?

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#10097: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:07:41 AM

[up]Some people believe that by having a Complete Monster in their show/book/etc of choice, that means their series is inherently better, more mature or "cooler". This encourages these people to exaggerate the evilness of the series' villains to try to fit them into a trope where they don't belong. By having more Complete Monsters in a show these people think: mo' monsters = mo' better.

edited 14th Mar '13 11:09:18 AM by OccasionalExister

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10098: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:08:53 AM

[up][up]It's essentially the same problem that exists on the MB pages. People think that by having this character type in the work, the work becomes better. That's simply not the case. Lot's of great works have neither a CM nor an MB candidate.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#10099: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:22:31 AM

Why is Grand Fisher a Complete Monster when he only killed one person?

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10100: Mar 14th 2013 at 11:43:22 AM

[up]The sadism he displays when taunting Ichigo is likely what got him listed, though at this point in the series, even factoring in his low power level, I could be persuaded to cut him.


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