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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96676: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:56:19 PM

Yes most of the stuff he does is what mcp ordered him to do. That being said I do think he could also count as he does have a level of independence.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#96677: Oct 8th 2017 at 1:18:23 PM

[tdown]Monroe

[tup]Anuk-Ite, Kane, and Captain Fowl

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#96678: Oct 8th 2017 at 1:20:15 PM

[up][up] Speaking of Tron does CLU count?

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#96679: Oct 8th 2017 at 1:21:36 PM

[tup] Anuk-Ite. Unsure about Kane, Fowl, and MCP.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96680: Oct 8th 2017 at 1:24:02 PM

[up] Uprising implied in the final episode that CLU is not a well intentioned extremist but a power hungry nut. But since it got cut short we never see this developed as it was cancelled just as he was about to arrive. A case of a potential CM that will not be.

edited 8th Oct '17 1:24:59 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#96681: Oct 8th 2017 at 1:24:31 PM

Clue does not count. As bad as his actions are, it ultimately comes down to him interpreting perfection differently than Flynn. Clu genuinely believes that what he's doing is right, and can't understand why Flynn is trying to stop him.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96682: Oct 8th 2017 at 1:27:39 PM

Well sadly if tron uprising continued we would be able to add him but it got cancelled just as he was about to arrive. The show gave him adaptional villainy and made his take over more about ambition but he only shows up in the final episode. If anyone feels they can make a case for that version of him then go ahead but screentime is a problem.

edited 8th Oct '17 2:18:20 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#96683: Oct 8th 2017 at 1:44:14 PM

I was thinking today on why Zemus from FFIV counts and the MCP, oddly, gives me the perfect place to explain why:

Golbez is more visible but he acts on Zemus' will due to brainwashing, thus making Zemus responsible for Golbez' crimes. There is also enough onscreen evidence for us to hold Zemus accountable for his genocidal plans.

I think the MCP and Sark is a similar situation. Not entirely the same, of course, but similar. Now, on to agency.

Skynet, Venjix etc were A.I.s that did what their programming compelled them to, but decided to take them to new levels of cruelty. They decided "I was programmed to do this, but I will use this for my own benefit because I am better than my creators." Skynet was a military programme that betrayed humanity, Venjix was a virus that got out of control and decided the world should be its etc.

I feel MCP is similar. It may have been made to steal other programmes, but it could do it in a less evil way. It could use its powers for good, even. But it chooses to be a dictator with Gladiator games and crap. It chooses to betray its maker, proclaiming him lesser. It ultimately claims to have evolved beyond its own parameters and decides to continue out of boredom.

While I'm interested in what the big hitters on this thread think, for now I'll [tup] the MCP.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96684: Oct 8th 2017 at 1:47:22 PM

Venjix is a good comparison as it was just supposed to destroy computers but decided to nuke the world. MCP is also like that as it goes far overboard then what it was supposed to do and like venjix revels in being cruel.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#96685: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:38:04 PM

From what I remember of TRON, nay to MCP... and no, CLU 2 definitely doesn't count as he has more pronounced sympathetic factors and agency issues (not to mention I think he blows MCP out of the water in terms of heinousness by a long shot — never mind the glaring issue of Tesler).

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#96686: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:40:56 PM

I trust Scraggle so I gotta downvote MCP. I rember Clu 2 committing genoicide, killing his right-hand man, and also organizing gladiatorial games. So I don't think MCP can make it.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96687: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:43:36 PM

[up] To be fair in tron uprising. Clu 2 was more motivated by ambition than well intentioned and received additional villainy from the movie so I think taking that as Canon in full strokes is a problem so competing with General Tesla may not be a thing.

edited 8th Oct '17 2:44:52 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#96688: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:46:56 PM

The majority of the programs on Clu's Grid were free. Not many of them got shipped to the games.

The MCP went after everyone, even the human race.

I took the ISO genocide into consideration and ultimately came to the conclusion that since the IS Os didn't exist in the first movie, it lessened the standard. MCP still does directly kill many programs, its just that it does it indiscriminately.

edited 8th Oct '17 2:49:31 PM by SatoshiBakura

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96689: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:48:58 PM

Yeah the thing is well there was a rebellion he did seem to let them do what they wanted for the most part. Well mcp goes after Everyone which is much worse.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#96690: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:49:39 PM

[up][up] I think your argument require more depth.

Edit: I will just wait till Lighty gets here and gives some of his input.

edited 8th Oct '17 2:51:03 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#96691: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:51:31 PM

So that's six votes for the Anuk-Ite and zero for Monroe. Here's the new Teen Wolf entries.

Teen Wolf

  • Gerard Argent is the cruel, cold blooded head of the Argent family and de-facto leader of the werewolf hunters. Gerard brainwashed his daughter Kate into being a vicious werewolf hunter herself, and did the same to his daughter in law Victoria, so as to manipulate their leadership. Gerard ordered Kate to seduce an underage Derek Hale, before burning his family home down. When Gerard first appears, Gerard bisects an innocent omega, and declares that all werewolves in Beacon Hills will be killed, regardless of innocence; blackmails Scott by threatening his mother; forces his son Chris to kill Victoria when she is bitten; manipulates his granddaughter Alison's grief to mould her into a ruthless hunter as well; kills the kanima master to take control of the kanima, using it to hold an unwitting crowd hostage; despite claiming to be avenging Kate, Gerard finally reveals his true plan was to get bitten by the Alpha Derek, to cure his cancer and take his powers, using Alison as leverage and declares he would kill his own son for the sake of his survival; when his plans backfires, he orders the kanima to kill everyone. In the third season it's revealed in his past when the werewolf Deucalion had a meeting to seek peace with the hunters, Gerard not only kills Deucalion's pack, but his own men as well, before blinding Deucalion with flashbang arrows, framing him for the massacre. Gerard returns in season five when Chris reluctantly seeks his help to stop the Beast of Gevaduan, and even then Gerard only helps to make a name for himself, and willing to kill anyone who works behind his back. In season six, Gerard takes advantage of the spreading fear in Beacon Hills to amass an army of hunters to simply wipe out not just the supernaturals in Beacon Hills, but the whole world as well. Gerard even goes as far as to make a bargain with the Anuk-Ite to help him; in the series finale, Gerard rounds up Scott's loved ones with the intent to kill them, and having used Kate, now a werejaguar, coldly attempts to kill her for being "one of them."
  • The Nogitsune possessing Stiles, self named Void, the Big Bad of season 3B, mentally and emotionally torments him, forces him to torture his friends, and go on constant murder sprees. Decades ago, it was originally summoned by Kira's mother at an internment camp to avenge her American lover, but instead massacres the internment camp, prisoners and guards alike, before finally being subdued. In the present, he sets up multiple traps, including sabotaging an electric cable killing several people and rendering Isaac Lahey comatose, has an arrow shot into Coach Finstock's stomach and lets a bomb go off in the Sheriff's station, all while pretending to be Stiles in front of his best friend Scott, before twisting a sword in Scott's gut. When he's separated from Stiles, he takes control of the Oni and has one of them kill Allison Argent. He later leads the Oni on a massacre at the local hospital and police station. In the final showdown, he plans on having Scott kill Stiles, citing it as the only way he can be defeated, simply because it sees it all as a game.
  • The Beast of Gévaudan also from Season 5, is known as history's most famous and vicious werewolf. In the 1700s, he was credited with killing 112 people, but the Dread Doctors claimed it was closer to 500, including children. His identity was discovered by Marie Jeanne Valet to be her own brother, Sebastian Valet, along with the corpses of his victims in a hidden stash. When he confessed, he was proud of his crimes, and claims his motives was that wanted to be remembered for the horrors he caused. When his sister opposed him, he was willing to kill her with no hesitation or remorse, spending three years trying to kill her. As Mary fatally wounds him, Sebastian muses that he will live through his legacy, until Mary Jeanne tells him that his name and image will be erased, and he'll only be remembered as the Beast. In the present day, the Beast is resurrected by the Dread Doctors, but doesn't remember his former identity. As he tries to piece his memory together, he goes on a new killing spree. Once he's resurrected via his vessel, Mason Hewitt, he is content with erasing him and kills the Dread Doctors, coldly dismissing the death of his old friend Marcel, who became the head Dread Doctor for the purposes of resurrecting him, even expressing annoyance at Scott and Liam for being heroic werewolves as he prepares to pick off where he left off. A vicious egomaniac obsessed with having a murderous legacy, Sebastian is seen as a Beast throughout history, for both being a literal monster, and the Beast representing his true personality.
  • Garrett Douglas, from season 6A, is the assumed identity of Der Soldat, an Alpha part löwensmensch (werelion) and werewolf who held the rank of Hauptmann, or Captain, as part of Ahnenerbe. In World War II, he used the Nazi Party as a means to his own ends and he learned of the Ghost Riders, which he sought to use to create an army under his control. At one point he kills another officer who mocked his plans and forced one of his men to open the rift into the Riders' limbo like world, burning said soldier to death and resulting in the Wild Hunt decimating his men. After being kept in suspended animation by the Dread Doctors, he broke free following their deaths, assuming the identity of a harmless high school teacher, while secretly killing people and eating the pineal gland of their brains. When the Wild Hunt arrive in Beacon Hills, he seemingly helps Scott's pack capture one of the riders, before killing said rider, devouring its pineal gland and taking its powers. With his newfound powers, Douglas begins reaping souls, and seeks to brainwash Parish to use his hellhound powers to enter the Riders' world and amass an army from the souls the Riders claimed. In the finale, he keeps Corey locked up with wires and electronics hooked into his body, using his chimera powers to merge the Riders' world with the mundane world to bring about his supernatural army, all the while mocking Scott and his friends for standing against him, intending to place them in his army as well.
  • The Anuk-Ite is a malevolent entity that delights in using fear to torment it's victims. The Anuk-Ite spreads fear through supernatural spider infestations, turning fear into murderous desire as communities tear themselves apart, all the while sowing in the chaos and death it causes. Imprisoned in the Wild Hunt, when it escapes one of the first things it does is drive the head doctor of Eichen House to kill his patients in a panic. The Anuk-Ite plays up the growing fear among Beacon Hills human population, making the genocidal war Gerard is starting even worse to draw power from it and directly influencing most of his soldiers. Taking advantage of the paranoia in the school, it uses Miss Monroe's cruel tests of flushing out supernaturals, to find the one who hosts it's other half, killing those it can't use; it's other half is in a young werewolf named Quinn whose pack it kills, before having Aaron kill Quinn and becoming full once again. Now free, it displays its power by turning everyone who cross its path into statues, before making a deal with Gerard to battle Scott. In the finale, the Anuk-Ite picks off Scott's allies, using hallucinations and their emotions (particularly loved ones) against them, showing a clear understanding of human thought process, and it's revealed the people turned to statues are still alive within them. During its final confrontation with Scott, it mocks Scott with Alison's death, revealing its desire to never be trapped again using Scott's fear and taking his powers.

edited 8th Oct '17 3:31:25 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96692: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:53:42 PM

I don't think we can take Tesla and Paval into consideration here as in that show CLU 2 is depicted as an ambitious power hungry nut which is way different from the movie version. I think broad strokes can only work here.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#96693: Oct 8th 2017 at 2:59:40 PM

To make a more detailed explanation on the whole heinous standard, the beginning of the first film establishes that those programs that the MCP deems powerful enough are killed and absorbed while the other programs are thrown into the matches. We see the former at the climax of the film which shows a dozen powerful programs getting drained. With that in mind plus how MCP has been going at this for a long time, Clu's genocide of the IS Os comes off as equal in that respect.

For the games, Legacy at least shows that the majority of programs don't participate and instead watch. The majority of the programs are free as long as they don't rebel against Clu. In contrast, the MCP gave freedom to no one. Everyone was his slave, those who would die for him would die from him. His rule in general was worse than Clu's.

monsterhunter-2002 Since: Aug, 2017
#96694: Oct 8th 2017 at 3:00:56 PM

Captain Catbeard in pirate 101 borders on this before you get himin your crew, as he makes you destroy 20 warships, 10 of whom have countless marleybonian soldiers on them, capture a governor's daughter (not that she complains though) and then pretend to rescue her, and then break into a prison, thus causing an interplanetary war, all just to get endless pickled herring. However, he does redeem himself and has some redeeming qualities.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96695: Oct 8th 2017 at 3:01:59 PM

Granted well thinking about an effort post for just the uprising version of CLU might be in order thanks to the adaptional villainy. So I'll rewatch it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#96696: Oct 8th 2017 at 3:06:56 PM

So, remember we were doing some Lansdale?

From the Lost Lansdale series, books of his that were given very limited print runs, I present Waltz of shadows

What's the Work?

Waltz of Shadows concerns Hank Small, who owns a video store with his loving wife Beverly in Imperial City, Texas. Hank has a happy marriage, two kids...an admittedly estranged older brother Arnold, but...then the black sheep of the family, the brothers' nephew Bill comes in. He's in trouble, he needs their help, and two terrifying killers are after him...known as Fat Boy and Snake.

Who Are They?

A pair of vicious criminals. Fat Boy is a short, bloated pig of a man while Snake is a tall, bald man with a facial tattoo of a blue cobra. Bill falls in with a bad group of adrenaline junkies called the Danger Club. This'll require some backstory later, be warned. Bill's flashbacks show that the group gets worse and worse until they decide it'd be a bright idea to go rob a well off townsman named Doc and possibly murder him using Billy as the scapegoat. Upon arriving, though...Doc isn't there and his wife is dead. Fat Boy and Snake killed her and are waiting. Billy flees but returns later to find the four criminals tortured and murdered. Group leader Dave has been sodomized with his own knife, one of the female members has been impaled in every orifice with straightened out wire hangers. Bill's girlfriend Sharon raped and murdered. You get the idea. The criminals also know of Billy and are actively hunting for him. Hank at first thinks it's a story, but soon realizes Fat Boy and Snake are real. Unfortunately, when he gets Arnold to come down and help, Fat Boy and Snake get to Billy first, hanging him after torturing him to get information from him. They leave a fake suicide note and promptly attack Hank's home. He comes home to find his wife tied to the bed naked, with Fat Boy poking at her with his gun in suggestive places. Snake knocks Hank out and just to drive in how helpless he is, pisses on his face. Hank is knocked out, and when unconscious, Fat Boy tries to rape Bev, but can't with Snake watching. Snake mocks him and assaults her with a bottle of baby oil before they leave.

...after they try to burn down the house with Beverly, Hank and their kids inside. Hank, at the end of his rope goes to a cop friend of his and his lawyer, who agree to help. However, knowing Hank has survived, Fat Boy and Snake plant child porn in their store to ruin them. Arnold and Hank have Doc tracked down to discover how he knows about them and why he hired them to kill his wife. It turns out Doc is a bit of a pedophile....Fat Boy and Snake make child pornography on the side and offered some to Doc. However, he got in too deep when one of their adult stars' wife got jealous of her husband liking their daughter more and hired Fat Boy to kill him. Fat Boy killed the entire family on a whim, and Doc saw Fat Boy and Snake also abduct little kids from the metropolitan areas and use them in videos before murdering them as well. Doc paid them to kill his wife, using installments as not to get to trigger their whims against him. The good guys entrap Fat Boy and Snake by using Doc with the lawyer Vic agreeing to try to buy some child porn wearing a wire. Unfortunately Doc's cowardice blows the scheme and Fat Boy kills Vic, though Hank, Arnold and their cop friend Price rain down hell as a result with Fat Boy shot to pieces and executed by Price...who then executes Doc as well. Hank chases down a fleeing Snake and the two throw down in the swamp, ending with Snake mortally wounded, dying in hideous agony as Arnold arrives to save his brother and piss in a dying Snake's face out of revenge for all he's done.

The Smalls are cleared, but its implied they leave Imperial City to start over, while Hank and Arnold reconcile their relationship as brothers.

Heinous Standard?

Okay, so dark book. The Danger Club are pricks, you have Doc who's a pedophile (he thinks he's not so bad because he only uses pictures) and the rest I mentioned, but Snake and Fat Boy blow everyone out of the water. They're torturers, rapists, murderers, run the child porn ring, make and distribute it and when Hank closes in to take Snake out, he sees a wall filled with Snake's child victims. Nobody even comes close to touching these two bastards.

Mitigating Qualities?

No. They make zero pretense about being evil scumbag murderers. They fully enjoy what they do, will kill people on a whim and have no real affection to one another we ever seen. They're likely to taunt one another, show no sign of friendship and when Fat Boy dies, Snake's only concern is saving his own hide.

No freudian excuse is ever offered, and the only time they seem to get a redeeming quality (warning Hank not to wake his kids so they don't 'have' to murder them) is instantly done in when they try to burn the kids alive anyways. Pass..

Conclusion?

Sounds like another pair of Ravok villains! Lansdale does it again

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#96697: Oct 8th 2017 at 3:15:29 PM

[tup] Snake and Fat Boy.

For MCP and CLU, is this a case where we should take into account Sequel Escalation and the Sequel Gap to mitigate the conflated Heinous standard, or is that not something we should consider?

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#96698: Oct 8th 2017 at 3:16:40 PM

@Lighty It probably wasn't, but even though Poppy is very much resolved (in what was a pretty resounding manner), I didn't want to leave anything out. In her write up, I didn't put in the part about one of her mines blowing up Merlin because it was such a small thing compared to everything else.

Thank you to everyone who voted for giving me my most successful candidate to date!

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#96699: Oct 8th 2017 at 3:19:40 PM

Future, I told you before. Keep it to things that matter to the villain. Harry's survival or whatnot is completely irrelevant to Poppy.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#96700: Oct 8th 2017 at 3:22:05 PM

[tup] Fat Boy and Snake (who's apparently also called Cobra Man, according to the Amazon description).

Beast, Argent's writeup needs to be trimmed by, like, at least 1/3.


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