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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#96651: Oct 8th 2017 at 10:56:42 AM

Unsure on Kane - I'm not sure how much is onscreen from that description and he may have agency issues.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96652: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:00:45 AM

abstain on kane it sounds like he was made to do that and that he has no choice.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
monsterhunter-2002 Since: Aug, 2017
#96653: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:06:27 AM

Ok now for Captain Fowl from Pirate 101:

Who is he?

A turkey crime lord in Skull Island who is responsible for making Ratbeard's life a living hell.

What has he done?

He killed Ratbeards father, burned his house, stole his parrot, and cut of his leg and this is implied to have been all when Ratbeard was just a child! He also switches Ratbeard's sleeping pills with poison to make Ratbeard unpopular in the pirate world, so when Ratbeard puts the pills in his crew's food intended to just knock the out so he can get the gold, it kills them, something that horrifies the usually tough and snarky pirate. He says "I never wanted to kill you, I just wanted to put you to sleep, not, well, put you to sleep" and "I never would've harmed a hair on those boys' heads. I would've taken the fortune, but that's just pirating". When Ratbeard angrily confronts Fowl, Fowl mocks him, "If I recall, it was you who killed those men". After he is defeated, Ratbeard wants to kill him, but says that his captain (the protagonist) has made him see that killing isn't always the right way, so Fowl is dragged off to prison and given a life sentence.

Redeeming qualities/Freudian Excuse?

None, he made Ratbeard the lying pirate he was and ruined his life. The worst part was how he mocked Ratbeard about it.

Heinous Standard?

Easily one of the worst villains in the game. Despite only appearing once In a minor quest, he is one of the darkest villains and is pure evil. Heck, he is so bad that not only does Ratbeard want to burn him alive (remember, this is a kids game folks), but Catbeard, a dude who started an interplanetary war just to get an endless supply of pickled herring, says he hates him and helps you (albeit he also wants you to get him food for him to give you Fowl's location), and hints that Fowl is hated by many other pirates as well.

Conclusion?

A Smug Snake who tricked Ratbeard into killing dozens and mocked him about it (not to mention screwing over Ratbeard's early life), he is one of the most despicable villains in a lighthearted game and it is very satisfying to defeat him (and no player would've been sad had he actually been cooked alive). Needless to say, he is a dark villain only surpassed by Kane and is not portrayed humorously at all.

edited 8th Oct '17 11:14:02 AM by monsterhunter-2002

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#96654: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:13:21 AM

I wonder if I should have added to Poppy's write up that Harry Hart also survived the Kingsman attacks because he was supposedly dead at the time already.

I don't know how the heinous standard of the movies is in comparison to the comics, but either way, it probably doesn't affect how nasty and evil Poppy is.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#96655: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:15:41 AM

I'm leaning nay to the pirate villains there...seem to have issues. If one, I guess keep Fowl

And Future, why is that necessary?

edited 8th Oct '17 11:26:56 AM by Lightysnake

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96656: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:17:07 AM

Kane

At first I thought that to, amigo, but he was created to destroy the Tortellini family, yet HELPS them lock Gazpaccio away and when he is ruler of Valencia, he puts the Tortellini families in charge of beating of the Guinea Pigs in Valencia. When Gazpaccio tries to give him a heart, he gleefully shoots him (yes, he killed someone in a kids game) and smugly states that "fathers must be replaced by their sons". He wants to destroy everything just to make himself perfect and kicks out his own son for being a failed project. He is a Social Darwinistic Complete Monster who believed all others inferior. His "Freudian Excuse" does not justify the vast majority of his actions AT ALL. He rejects being good and as mentioned earlier, DEFIES HIS PROGRAMMING, meaning he had full control over his actions but decided that his father was useless.

He messaged me with why Kane has agency. I am not sure.

edited 8th Oct '17 11:22:14 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#96657: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:21:25 AM

Not sure of the Anuk-Ite again. There's that heinousness issue because it has to compete with Der Soldat, the Nogitsune and Sebastian

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96658: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:23:55 AM

I dont know can someone tell me whether that means he has moral agency.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96659: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:31:37 AM

[tup] captain fowl as he does sound bad.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
monsterhunter-2002 Since: Aug, 2017
#96660: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:33:38 AM

IMO, Kane is as bad, if not Worse than Fowl and Morganthe. He is basically like Sidious or Tarkin.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#96661: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:46:52 AM

I think what pushes the Anuk-Ite with its heinousness is mass Mind Rape, which was the whole reason Gerard's army got as big as it did and went as far as it did, and infliction an And I Must Scream on literally everyone who meets its gaze (something that's also said to slowly kill its victims).

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96662: Oct 8th 2017 at 11:48:40 AM

Yeah i kinda think that makes it stand out as well.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#96663: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:06:03 PM

Alright, I said yesterday that I would start a re-discussion on the MCP from TRON, and I will do that now.

Who is the MCP?

The MCP is the Big Bad of Tron. In the real world, the MCP serves as a security program for the company ENCOM, working with Corrupt Corporate Executive Ed Dillinger. The MCP breaks into other computer systems to steal information and acquire more power, which Dillinger finds unsettling but works with.

Inside the computer world, the MCP rules as a dictator. The programs that it captures are enslaved by its forces (remember that in Tron, programs are sentient) and forced to either give up their belief in Users (real world humans) and join its ranks or be forced to play deadly video games until they die. Those who go against this system are killed. The MCP knows Users are real, but believes to be above them.

What does it do?

On the outset, the MCP is established to be kidnapping programs and forcing them into the Game Grid. An accounting program named Crom is forced into a cell against his will because he still believes in Users. Many other programs are also imprisoned. The MCP has been kidnapping military programs in order to increase the fierceness of the death games.

The MCP forces the split between programs that still believe in the Users and those that disbelieve in them. Those who don't will eventually be killed, and that part is shown several times.

When protagonist Kevin Flynn sends his program Clu into ENCOM'S system to retrieve information to prove that Ed Dillinger committed fraud, Clu is captured. The MCP painfully interrogates Clu about his User. When Clu refuses to answer, he is executed and absorbed by the MCP. Despite this, the MCP knows that Flynn was the User.

A later he converses with Dillinger, revealing that it is planning on hacking into the Pentagon. When Dillinger tries to reassert control, the MCP mocks him by saying how it has evolved beyond its initial programming and that humans have no power over it anymore. Then it reveals that it also wants to break into the Kremlin. Since the MCP is smarter than a human, it wants full control over all intelligence systems in the world.

When Flynn decides to break into ENCOM physically in another attempt to expose Dillinger, the MCP catches him. Flynn trolls the AI, so the MCP digitizes him into the computer world, forcing him to compete in the games until he dies playing.

The MCP is mostly absent but its influence is shown well. Programs were once able to communicate with Users, but the MCP shut down that connection.

Finally at the end of the movie, the MCP reappears when The Dragon, Sark, brings a dozen captured programs. It then begins to painfully drain the programs with the goal of becoming complete. Ultimately, the MCP is killed when Flynn jumps into it, allowing Tron to score a direct hit with his disc. With the MCP dead, programs and Users are able to communicate freely again and the computer world is restored...until TRON: Legacy.

Moral agency?

Alright, the reason why it was originally cut was because of the assumption that it was just following its programming. However, there is one problem: we don't know what the exact programming is. All we know is that it was originally a chess program, was upgraded to take control of security of ENCOM , and that Dillinger quips that it was programmed too want to much. Nothing about its programming states that it has to rule the programming world with an iron fist. Nothing about it states that it has to force all kinds of programs to play death games. Nothing about it states that it has to kill and absorb other programs for power. That's its own choice.

But most of all, the supposed lack of free will is disputed by its argument with Dillinger, were it reveals that it wants to hack the Pentagon and Kremlin out of boredom. When Dillinger tries to reassert control, the MCP mocks his authority, saying that it became so smart that it has ascended past its original programming. The MCP is not performing its actions because it was told to, it performs them for its own use and satisfaction. Even if the MCP was originally programmed to steal other programs, there is nothing to force it to keep going anymore as it has moved past that.

Redeeming Qualites?

None. The MCP is power hungry and it knows and revels in it. It hates humanity for not being smart enough, and hates programs for working for humanity.

Heinousness?

I've only seen the original and Legacy, so I can't be too sure of the villains from Uprising, though they seem to be either on par with or lower than the MCP.

Clu from Legacy is about as heinous as the MCP, but ultimately just has a poor idea of perfection. Most of the programs are happy with his rule, unlike in Tron, where the good programs hate the MCP.

To make a more detailed explanation on the whole heinous standard, the beginning of the first film establishes that those programs that the MCP deems powerful enough are killed and absorbed while the other programs are thrown into the matches. We see the former at the climax of the film which shows a dozen powerful programs getting drained. With that in mind plus how MCP has been going at this for a long time, Clu's genocide of the IS Os comes off as equal in that respect.

For the games, Legacy at least shows that the majority of programs don't participate and instead watch. The majority of the programs are free as long as they don't rebel against Clu. In contrast, the MCP gave freedom to no one. Everyone was his slave, those who would die for him would die from him. His rule in general was worse than Clu's.

Verdict?

[tup]

edited 8th Oct '17 4:18:25 PM by SatoshiBakura

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#96664: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:10:49 PM

[tup] Anuk-Ite

Gotta think on the Pirate 101 duo.

How does the MCP compare to the other villains in the franchise?

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#96665: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:14:55 PM

[tdown] MCP until you give me information on the heinous standard. It sounds bad, but how does it compare to the other villains? We need that information.

edited 8th Oct '17 12:16:23 PM by ReynTime250

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96666: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:16:08 PM

Well there's General Tesla and Paval who we have listed but there mid and low tier. CLU himself tried to take over the world. You know what i think when you think on it and add the trying to hack the Kremlin stuff it does stand out.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#96667: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:18:39 PM

I've only seen the original and Legacy, so I can't be too sure of the villains from Uprising, though they seem to be on par with the MCP.

Clu from Legacy is about as heinous as the MCP, but ultimately just has a poor idea of perfection. Most of the programs are happy with his rule, unlike in Tron, where the good programs hate the MCP.

The MCP might actually be the most heinous since it acts directly against humanity as a whole as well.

edited 8th Oct '17 12:20:32 PM by SatoshiBakura

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96668: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:22:13 PM

[up] dont worry about the uprising villains there just low and mid tier not on that level.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96670: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:31:12 PM

[tup] mcp

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96672: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:40:12 PM

You know what the fact he can disobey his creater and sided with the guy he was supposed to kill means he has moral agency to me. So [tup] Kane.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#96673: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:50:20 PM

From what I recall Sark was worse from MCP.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#96674: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:53:57 PM

Sark is a cronie and most of his bad acts he does are on the mcp orders.

Sark is essentially a kapo, lording over the other programs while MCP lords over him. He carries out MCP's will by forcing his fellow programs to engage in gladiatorial games

edited 8th Oct '17 1:03:31 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#96675: Oct 8th 2017 at 12:53:59 PM

Well Sark had a lot more screen time. And could actually move. The MCP was hampered by not being able to move its body.

Besides, Sark was mostly enforcing the MCP's will. But I will propose Sark later anyway.


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