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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#90926: Jul 27th 2017 at 2:28:20 PM

I just want to mention, what some of you may be remembering might be the American dubbed version of the movie, Doogal. I'm not putting myself through watching that but I have seen clips, and as everyone else in that movie, his dialogue is made out of bizzare pop culture references. This is about the original British-French version, the canon one, in which he is an actual character taken seriously and feared. He doesn't count in Doogal.

Just thought I'd mention it [awesome]

ZetaRidge (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#90927: Jul 27th 2017 at 2:30:34 PM

[up][up]

[up]

I see. I'm still kinda unsure of Zeebad at the moment so I'll abstain for now.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#90928: Jul 27th 2017 at 3:07:53 PM

[tup] Zeebad

I'm fully aware of the slasher heinous standard. For example, last night I also watched one called Alice in Murderland, which was fucking awful. The killer throws away any redeeming qualities by the end, but "only" kills a few people with bladed weaponry, AKA the basic qualifications to be a goddamn slasher. So I didn't propose her.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#90929: Jul 27th 2017 at 3:24:11 PM

Abstaining on Zeebad; I'm not sure I can tell what's explicit and what's Fridge Horror from the writeup.

UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
#90930: Jul 27th 2017 at 3:27:28 PM

I know this is kinda against the whole point of the trope, but who would you guys say is the most tragic CM? Like a CM who you know is a monster, but they've been through so much shit you still feel a tinge of guilt for them turning bad.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#90931: Jul 27th 2017 at 3:27:31 PM

Unsure on Zeebad for the same reason.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#90932: Jul 27th 2017 at 3:36:16 PM

Abstaining on Zeebad. Obviously Doogal changed his character to make him more comedic whereas he was taken seriously in the original movie.- why else do you think they cast Jon Stewart?

MatLShini Since: Jul, 2014
#90933: Jul 27th 2017 at 3:56:00 PM

Tragic CM? Probably Lotso. His backstory is surprisingly and effectively tragic and it is what makes me not agree with him being classified as one here. He is certainly evil and crosses the MEH, but to me he falls into a very dark Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds.

About baseline heinousness, that's what surprised me the most about Shere Khan being voted down. I don't understand how he fails this baseline. This is a live action Disney movie: it certainly is Darker and Edgier than the animated version, but it still is a family-friendly movie. Yet, the villain is The Dreaded, has a 0% Approval Rating and is responsible for quite some scary and tense moments in the plot. As for his actual deeds, he commits two on-screen murders and attempts to kill the protagonist several times (who is a kid who otherwise has no qualms with the tiger). Not even King Louie, the secondary antagonist, comes close.

He also doesn't get any sympathetic qualities. He tries to portray himself as a good guy, but he is shown to be unreasonably violent, vicious and hypocritical. He is responsible for roughly everything that goes wrong in the movie. And yet was voted down. Go figure.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#90934: Jul 27th 2017 at 3:56:21 PM

Gonna have to abstain on Zeebad too, at least until we get some clarification on the whole "Freeze the sun" thing.

As for tragic CM's, I felt genuinely bad for Lotso, Ardyn, and Koba, and even after seeing how far they went in nullifying their freudian excuses I still find them pitiable to a degree. And having recently watched the whole series, the same goes with Zoom from CW's Flash.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#90935: Jul 27th 2017 at 4:09:14 PM

Nazis are simultaneously easy and hard to make CMs. Easy because even in Real Life Nazis were the most default Villain by Default ever. Hard because this means they have a high heinous standard. But I want to know if, in settings set in WWII, if there are people on the allies' side that are CMs. Not So Different, a sign of how WWII was more grey than we think

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#90936: Jul 27th 2017 at 4:11:18 PM

[up] I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but there's probably a few, even if we haven't listed them yet.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#90937: Jul 27th 2017 at 4:16:39 PM

For me, my mos 'tragic' CM is probably Koba.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#90938: Jul 27th 2017 at 4:17:14 PM

Ditto with Koba. An example of a "three-dimensional" CM.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#90939: Jul 27th 2017 at 4:29:46 PM

Most "tragic"?

Maybe most "pitiable" would be a better way of putting it.

Even then, it's hard for me to think of someone I'd consider a CM I pity, and even then there's so few it probably isn't worth mentioning them.

A big part of the reason that certain genres have different baselines when it comes to heinousness is because we'd otherwise have almost every slasher villain or supervillain etc ever. And that would be redundant.

Of course, A Nightmare On Elm Street is not affected by Jason's actions in the Friday The13th series, but both series heinous standards are affected by Halloween, the Trope Codifier for the modern slasher picture. So, yes, some stories do affect other stories' heinous standards, but those are the exceptions. Halloween set the standard because it was the first of its kind. Die Hard, similarly, set the standard of modern action films with Hans Gruber. If it were released today, Gruber would be seen as bog standard in terms of evil. But since he's the first, we gave leeway. An exception to the rule.

But that's the important part: Keep the exceptions in mind, but keep to the rule.

Nightmare and Friday do not affect each other's heinous standards. But they are both affected by Halloween.

I think.

[down] No idea. Haven't seen that Jungle Book film yet and wasn't talking about that at all.

edited 27th Jul '17 5:00:28 PM by PolarPhantom

MatLShini Since: Jul, 2014
#90940: Jul 27th 2017 at 4:35:09 PM

I know. I got that part.

That being said, so what movies should the 2016 Jungle Book be compared to? Which similar works affect the film's heinous standard?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#90941: Jul 27th 2017 at 4:47:55 PM

If I think of Tragic CM Koba's the first one to come in mind

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#90942: Jul 27th 2017 at 5:03:01 PM

Any more votes on Walter Machen? Currently he has 7 [tup] and 2 [tdown].

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#90944: Jul 27th 2017 at 5:25:22 PM

Here's a situation for the two week spoiler rule. The Amonkhet arc for Magic: The Gathering just rapped up and Nicol Bolas's entry will need an expansion. The actual material expansion with all the cards were released two weeks ago starting tomorrow, but the final story chapter was put on the website just yesterday. The conundrum here is that the cards show off the entirety of the story already through flavor text so the entire story of the expansion was effectively released two weeks ago, but a last bit of story was released on the website that mostly just filled in some blanks and added detail. Should the discussion start tomorrow since that's when the full story came out, or should we play it safe and wait two more weeks?

edited 27th Jul '17 5:25:36 PM by LoreDeluxe

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#90945: Jul 27th 2017 at 5:57:26 PM

Unsure on Zeebad.

There are a few C Ms that are pretty tragic in my opinion, but I have a hard time personally viewing them as C Ms in spite of previous rulings, so I'd rather not go into it.

Regarding Shere Khan, I don't think he meets the baseline. Two murders and an attempt on the protagonist's life (even if the protagonist is a kid) isn't really enough in my book. There is still a baseline heinous level a character needs to reach to qualify even without comparing them to other villains in the genre.

[up] I think it would be fine to discuss tomorrow.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#90946: Jul 27th 2017 at 6:07:04 PM

I concur with everything Tommy said after Zeebad

MatLShini Since: Jul, 2014
#90947: Jul 27th 2017 at 6:07:09 PM

@Tommy Fresh If we can compare both movies, Scar committed only one murder (and one murder attempt in his very first scene), yet he qualified. Why can't SK?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#90948: Jul 27th 2017 at 6:08:46 PM

Because Scar was willing to condemn everyone to die by starvation to salvage his own pride, tried to murder two children of his own species for the throne, mentally traumatized his nephew, murdered his brother, etc.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#90949: Jul 27th 2017 at 6:10:34 PM

[up][up] Scar also was responsible for the suffering in the Pride Lands. Shere Khan doesn't have anything close to that scale. If Scar had only killed Mufasa he wouldn't qualify.

edited 27th Jul '17 6:10:54 PM by TommyFresh


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