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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#89651: Jul 12th 2017 at 4:06:03 AM

A minor update on a previous candidate.... in my travels in Japan here, I found the entire manga run of Tokyo Tribe 2 (raws, of course). Jadakins counts even more solidly than he does in the anime. I'll make a small adjustment to his writeup soon. And... I may have a few new cases to make for some villains I dismissed earlier.

Stay tuned.

edited 12th Jul '17 5:51:20 AM by Scraggle

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#89652: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:11:34 AM

[tup] to Koutei, Lyndon, and Madeline. [tdown] to Sinister because of the stuff with his family.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#89653: Jul 12th 2017 at 6:03:45 AM

@ Scraggle, here's why I disagree, its a Freudian Excuse with no development. It was one line the book states when talking about his backstory, we never meet his wife and child, we know don't how their deaths affected him in any great detail, we never see what Sinister was like before that and Sinister never mentions them and their deaths do not inform his motives.

Its literally one line that the book says about Sinister and nothing suggested he still cares about them. A good Freudian Excuse needs more development then that, IMO.

edited 12th Jul '17 6:57:04 AM by Overlord

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#89654: Jul 12th 2017 at 6:07:30 AM

[tup] Sinister. I do think we need to see something onscreen/on-panel to be sure what they're saying is true if the mitigating factor is barely a mention but unprovable. It's very easy for characters to say something, but their actions prove it's a bold-faced lie.

Keep in mind it's a questionable factor, but I'm going with yes if we don't see it proven as true.

Shadow?
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#89655: Jul 12th 2017 at 6:20:50 AM

I'll probably [tup] Sinister as well.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#89656: Jul 12th 2017 at 6:24:39 AM

I'll give a cautious [tup] to Sinister.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#89657: Jul 12th 2017 at 6:26:04 AM

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned Mr. Sinister is a yes. A freudian excuse that's unrelated to his present-day crimes? The fact that he never acknowledges his family in the present and that we're briefly told about it by the narration itself? Yeah, I'd say that it really doesn't hold water.

Also giving a yes to Madeline: never knew Witchblade was a comic. I knew about the anime, read a bit of the manga, but the fact that a western comic exists is news to me.

edited 12th Jul '17 6:26:29 AM by FriedWarthog

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#89660: Jul 12th 2017 at 7:04:53 AM

[up] Among other things, it needs to be cut by AT LEAST 20-25%. Not to mention, I don't even remember the effortpost.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#89661: Jul 12th 2017 at 7:05:49 AM

The effortpost was done. That I remember, Ravok, more familiar with the material, confirmed the keep for me.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#89662: Jul 12th 2017 at 7:24:17 AM

Alright. The entry still needs work.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#89663: Jul 12th 2017 at 7:27:38 AM

[tup] Madeline Desormeaux.

Mr. Sinister is difficult. See, the problem with him is that yes, his backstory is literally one line. But sometimes someone's backstory should not be glossed over. That being said, we have had villains come in this forum before who have a legitimate Freudian Excuse (I see you, Kilgrave) and they still count. But with cases like Kilgrave, they had the opportunity to make themselves a better person because of their horrible history. Villains like Kilgrave had the opportunity to not turn into the monster that they are now. But they refused.

And that's the problem with Sinister: his backstory is not developed at all. Even Abu Fayed had a brief bit of backstory, but he still counts because his dead brother was not some precious, loving family relative. He was just a thing that Bauer took away from him.

Is there absolutely nothing even slightly hinting that Sinister is striking out at the world over his family's death? Not even a bit of dialogue? Is it just this one narration line?

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#89664: Jul 12th 2017 at 7:37:52 AM

[up] Its literally one line of narration, compared to several pages of Sinister acting like a eugenics obsessed mad scientist.

Rogue even states Sinister is not doing this for revenge, his motive is the same as always, eugenics and For Science!.

I think if we are not count off screen villainy towards a villain counting, a FE this underdeveloped is not even close to good enough to count.

edited 12th Jul '17 7:40:09 AM by Overlord

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#89665: Jul 12th 2017 at 7:43:27 AM

[up] So it isn't "Oh, I'm doing all these horrible things because I'm secretly a self-loather filled with pain and I wanna see everyone suffer the way I did."

It's "Oh, I'm doing all these horrible things because I want to. But pity me, because at one point in life, I lost someone I cared about. Even though I never talk about them, never mention them, and if the narrator hadn't said so, you probably wouldn't even know these people existed."

..........Yeah. [tup] Sinister.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#89666: Jul 12th 2017 at 7:47:19 AM

Just out of curiosity, what's the exact line?

BTW, this Saturday I TENTATIVELY plan to write up Carnage (assuming my COMPLETE copy of the book has arrived); effortpost any contenders from the "Venom Trilogy"; and create Monster.Marvel Literature.

BTW, here's a quote Ravok mentioned to me. I like it, but it may be a BIT too long for the page quote:

"I intend to establish the Fourth Reich. Envision this if you will, dear doctor. One fine morning, a little over five weeks hence, the proud city of London will be struck with a massive quake. In minutes it will be reduced to no more than a pile of ruin. Yes, in just a few minutes we will have accomplished what all Hitler’s missiles failed to do in World War Two. Then, before the stunned world can even understand what has happened, Paris will suffer a similar fate. The Eiffel Tower will fall, the whole city will turn to dust. Perhaps I shall also smash New York City. Yes, that would be most impressive and highly satisfying. To destroy that decadent place, all the sweaty millions of inferior humans who dwell there in filth. All the killers and thieves and radicals. To crush them all beneath brick and stone and concrete, to send their steel and glass towers slamming down on them . . . ah, that would be fine. I have a dream, doctor, a dream of Armageddon."
Red Skull, Captain America: Holocaust for Hire

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#89667: Jul 12th 2017 at 8:11:38 AM

[up] The line is part of a couple of paragraphs where the book narrates his back story:

"His humanity destroyed by the death of his wife and child, Sinister gave himself up to the machinations of the malevolent Apocalypse, a creature of fantastic age and evil, who had awakened in Sinister's time to once more pursue his agenda of world domination".

That's it. The same couple of paragraphs say all Sinister cares about his is research and says people, mutant or immortal, living or dead, mean nothing to him, so I find it highly unlikely he still cares about his family. I think when Essex became Sinister, he chose to abandon his humanity completely and stopped caring about his family. Maybe Sinister cared his family once, but there is zero evidence that is still the case.

Rogue even says there no point crying or begging for mercy to Sinister while he gives her his "cure", stating that Sinister is an inhuman monster.

edited 12th Jul '17 8:33:55 AM by Overlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#89668: Jul 12th 2017 at 8:31:41 AM

Yeah, this seems like one of those cases where he DID care about them, but the key word is DID. If there's no indication he still does, [tup] Sinister.

edited 12th Jul '17 8:31:54 AM by ACW

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#89669: Jul 12th 2017 at 8:52:30 AM

I'll [tup] Madeline and - don't make me regret this - Demon!Lorie, assuming it's treated as seriously as it should be and is vague about its continuity with the Postal series.

I'll also... man... yeah, I'll [tup] that Sinister man. If it's stated at so many points that he doesn't care about anyone, I think it's save to say his FE doesn't hold up.

UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#89671: Jul 12th 2017 at 9:01:15 AM

Yeah, [tup] Sinister. I have a hard time believing that's redeeming at all.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm reading that book Out of the Woods again, and the effortpost is going to be quite long. Sixty pages in and I have seven hundred words, it's a 350 page book. This villain is really, really nasty, then, sorry if this effort post takes a long time. I'm reading the book simutaneously as I'm writing it, it's fun. While I'm here, Koutei writeup:

Bomberman B-Daman Bakugaiden anime: The Dark Koutei, the form of a giant eye, is the main, and worst, villain of the entire series. One thousand years ago, he and his army attempted to take over a solar system before being locked away by the Big Good; another thousand years later he re emerges. Elevating him to a truly vile villain is the fates of his minions: instead of just berating or even firing them, he locks them up in strange domes, doomed to float around in space for all eternity, unescapable. There's also the small matter of how he procured his son: by kidnapping a child and corrupting him. Koutei manages to be the most despicable villain in Bakugaiden without really trying.

edited 12th Jul '17 9:30:08 AM by MahStache

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#89672: Jul 12th 2017 at 9:09:39 AM

I suppose I'll switch to [tup] on Sinister if the stuff with his family is just in the past. I'll vote [tup] to Lorie as long as it isn't in continuity at all with the Postal games. Not really sold on the SCP candidate to be honest.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#89673: Jul 12th 2017 at 9:13:40 AM

[up][up] Please add to the Drafts.

Who's the book by?

edited 12th Jul '17 9:15:31 AM by ACW

UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
#89674: Jul 12th 2017 at 9:32:48 AM

Okay, I've got real good Creepypasta recommendation.

What is the work?

Princess is a shot horror story about a family, whose dog gives birth to a litter of pups. One of these pups is a snow white dog with shiny blue eyes, they decide to name her Princess...to bad she's anything but...

Who is she?

Princess is the seventh puppy born from a German Shepard named Duchess. Despite her siblings looking like German Shepards, she was born a snowy white, she wasn't even albino. However, he appearance isn't her only characteristic...

What did she do?

When Princess was a small puppy, she killed all six of her siblings by strangling them to death with her mouth, like a jaguar, then began dominating her parents (and the author admits the owners as well), hogging all the food to herself. Princess also had a habit of taunting her owners, killing rabbits and leaving them in the bushes behind their house. The narrator even tells of the time he walked into the family shed and found Princess devouring the kittens of a stray cat family that would visit the family regularly, looking him straight in the eye as she devoured that last kitten. The mother of the kittens was found in the, what the narrator now describes as, "rabbit bush". However, the straw that broke the camels back was when she killed the beloved family dog, Rocky. The father of the house, after shedding some Manly Tears, sent his wife and kid away so he could put Princess down. When Princess, knowing full well what he was planning to do to her, ran into the woods, the father drafted a family friend from up the street to help. During their hunt, Princess leaped on the father and attempted to tear his throat out, but he was able to give the neighbor a good shot, and he put her down for good. Well...at least that's what they thought. After the neighbor returned to the woods to get Princess's remains to bury, he found that her body was gone, and so was literally every living creature in the forest. Wisely, he got out of there and informed the family. Later that night, Princess came home, completely wrecked the house and unburied Rocky, ripping his body to pieces and painting the house with his blood. Though she left, and never returned to attack the house again, the family would occasionally find "gifts" in the rabbit bush. Then, while the narrator was in college, he got a call from his dad that the neighbor who helped him kill Princess had died. "Heart attack in his sleep", they knew better. The story ends with his parents leaving the house and the narrator getting a call from the father of the new family that moved in...about pretty white shepherd they've been seeing in the woods.

Freudian Excuse or mitigating factors?

As the narrator points out, she was well looked after and never struggled for food. Everything she did was For the Evulz.

Heinous standard?

Big Bad and only antagonist in the story, meets it.

Conclusion?

[tup]From me, I freakin love dogs and say this thing needed to be put down.

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#89675: Jul 12th 2017 at 9:33:14 AM

[up] The book's by a woman called Lyn Gardner, I haven't read her books other than this series but they have a very British feel to them.

This candidate here is a very old witch who feeds on children and wants to rip one's heart out to replace her own. I won't spoil anything, but she says some really CM-ish stuff and I hope nothing stupid or disqualifying happens, she'd make a good candidate.

edited 12th Jul '17 9:33:28 AM by MahStache


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