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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#89551: Jul 10th 2017 at 4:37:04 PM

I hear what you're sayng. My only concern is if a guy who was already bad willingly allowed his corruption.

Unfortunately, it seems Gharnef may need to be a cut

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#89553: Jul 10th 2017 at 4:44:39 PM

Based off the new evidence it sounds like Gharnef should be cut.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#89554: Jul 10th 2017 at 4:48:35 PM

[tdown] Gharnef. That does seem like a lack of agency. It makes me wonder how More than Mind Control usually relates to C Ms

edited 10th Jul '17 4:48:49 PM by MorningStar1337

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#89556: Jul 10th 2017 at 4:50:08 PM

[tdown] Gharnef due to new evidence.

Shadow?
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#89557: Jul 10th 2017 at 4:51:12 PM

Hold on now, this seems like a classic case of "evil guy voluntarily does thing that makes him more evil" to me. Are you all seeing something I'm not? That doesn't sound like agency issues to me.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#89558: Jul 10th 2017 at 4:57:02 PM

[up] That's kind of the only way we could justify keeping him right now, I think.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#89559: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:01:05 PM

The difference, to me, is that while Hardin, Lyon, etc. had sympathetic reasons for wanting the power of an Artifact of Doom, Gharnef just took it out of pure jealousy.

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#89560: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:13:44 PM

[up]One could maybe say that while Gharnef took the Darksphere out of jealousy, the Darksphere's influence ramped up his inner darkness to drive him to do things he normally wouldn't do. Kind of like how the One Ring drives Smeagol to do horrible things for the sake of possessing it.

While Gharnef certainly wasn't a saint, the question is this: if Gharnef hadn't made contact with an object capable of causing one's inner darkness to utterly consume them, would he have done any of the horrible things he did throughout the games? For all we know, he could've been, at worst, just a shady guy with empathy problems who only became the monster we see in the games because the Darksphere took all of his bad qualities and twisted the dials until they broke.

I mean, seeing what the Darksphere could drive someone like Hardin to do, I'm giving Gharnef a [tdown] unless there's sufficient proof that Gharnef minus the Darksphere would've willing walked the same path of monstrosity he did with the Darksphere. And no, "he wasn't given the Aura because he had a black heart" is not proof that he would've been the same monster.

edited 10th Jul '17 5:18:36 PM by dragonfire5000

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#89561: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:19:39 PM

Do what you want; I know far less about Archanaea than about Elibe or Tellius.

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#89562: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:23:44 PM

Hold on now, this seems like a classic case of "evil guy voluntarily does thing that makes him more evil" to me. Are you all seeing something I'm not? That doesn't sound like agency issues to me.

=>The way I see it, you aren't wrong, but jealousy only doesn't make you a complete monster of even necessarily a bad guy. The whole point of the recruitment of Arlen make me think that if their position had been reversed, they role would have too (so Arlen would have become the complete monster because of the darkshepre and Gharnef the jealous mage who whould have talked out of it by his master by comparing him to Arlen). And Arlen isn't a particlarly bad guy one he gets his Heel Realization, even joining the army. Following this, I don't see how Gharnef would have turned that evil without the darksphere. Factually, the bad only thing we're told about him pre-darksphere is that he lacked a caring heart, and that's why he didn't got aura, and we now from hardin than we can't base our perception of him from what he did post corruption. it could very well have been( and the game seem to support this idea) that was just Good Is Not Nice.

Also, I believe the idea gharnef would have been the same man without the darkspehre is a bit self defeating to me : what drove him was jealousy, but present gharnef just want to wipe out humanity. Interestingly, corrupted Hardin reached the same ambition : wiping the earth from mankind, who was too keen on betraying to deserve living. I don't see how one jealous man would go to destroy the world because his boss didn't chose him. So I agree with Dragonfire, and given the evidence we have, I don't believe gharnef would have turned out the same without the darksphere.

edited 10th Jul '17 5:24:52 PM by Yumil

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#89563: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:27:24 PM

Even so I'd have to think that there's something... not at all normal about a guy whose reaction to being passed over for a promotion is to grab an evil hell artifact to get revenge...

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#89564: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:30:38 PM

To me, it's higly probable he didn't (and for that matter, nobody did) understood how far the darksphere can push you. it sounds like the type of thing someone could think he can outwill the thing and walk off unharmed if he's strong-willed enough, and then being proved very wrong -like Lyon geniunely believed he could control the demon king because he decided to.

There's also the fact the damn thing is part of the binding shield, as one of the 5 stones necessary to create it, sooooooo something linked to the holy artifact can't be THAT problematic, right .... ? (and for reference, wileders of the binding shield can shrug it off unharmed because the same shield has the lightsphere embedded in it, which negate the darksphere effects)

edited 10th Jul '17 5:33:07 PM by Yumil

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#89565: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:32:24 PM

I think a major difference is Lyon's intentions were ultimately benevolent there.

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#89566: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:35:32 PM

Whether they were benevolent or selfish doesn't change the overall point, I think. You could make this out of selfishness without intention to be evil (and the FE lore has examples of dark magic being Dark Is Not Evil). The key part is if the intentions were plainly evil from start. He just created a spell who could rival Aura in power. Whether that was to destroy the world, show off his skill or have a consolation prize, that's WMG at this point, I think, but unless he was going for the whole world destruction from the start, which seems very far-fetched, the fault is on the sphere, not the man.

edited 10th Jul '17 5:45:31 PM by Yumil

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#89567: Jul 10th 2017 at 6:42:33 PM

The best example that comes to mind of a bad guy willingly removing their goodness is M. Bison. Of course, he was already a bastard, but he willingly stripped himself of his good side to make himself stronger, said good side even manifesting as its own person.

But I don't know this character so there's not much I can contribute, I'm afraid.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#89568: Jul 10th 2017 at 6:50:55 PM

New proposal, from Werewolves on Wheels

Who's the candidate?

One, a Satanic cult leader.

What does he do?''

We first see One after his cultists give our protagonists, the Devil's Advocates, bread and wine to put them to sleep for their master's purposes.

These purposes? Get one of the female members as a Bride of Satan! To begin the dark marriage ritual, One murders a cat for its blood. He then mind controls the Biker Babe to burn herself alive for the Dark One before the Advocates rescue her.

In retaliation, One places a curse on the Bride, giving her the lycanthropy, which she passes on to her boyfriend. The werewolves then maul two of their friends to death.

Later, an Advocate with Psychic Powers ends up linking with One, and psychologically tormenting him with visions of their rituals. Later that night, the werewolves kill a biker on night watch.

Next night, the bikers have decided to confront One and his cult themselves. They stop for camp, and the werewolves transform again. They try to massacre the rest of the gang, but one's burned alive and the other escapes, only to die in a fiery crash as well. The survivors then ride to confront One...

Only, One has now taken the form of their leader, and makes the survivors into his mind slaves. He then gives Satan his bride.

Yep. The Bad Guy Wins.

Heinousness?

Big Bad, sets it.

Mitigating factors?

He claims to be a Mouth of Sauron for Lucifer, but there's no evidence for this actually being the case. Instead, One is portrayed as just an Evil Sorcerer and religious fanatic.

Verdict?

[tup]

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#89569: Jul 10th 2017 at 6:54:16 PM

[tup] One. Sounds like a weird work.

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#89571: Jul 10th 2017 at 7:08:47 PM

[tup]

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#89572: Jul 10th 2017 at 7:24:30 PM

Alright, finally have a new example...

What's The Work?

The Warrior and the Sorceress is a homag-...sorry, shameless rip off of Yojimbo and Fistful of Dollars as a swords and sorcery film, starring David Carradine as the wandering warrior Kain, who stalks the wastelands of the desert world Ura. Arriving in a city, Kain discovers that it's ruled by the wicked warlords Zeg and Bal Caz, who are at odds with one another. Selling his services to the two, Kain begins plotting their downfall by playing them against one another.

Who is Zeg and What's He Done?

Unlike the fat, merchant-like Bal Caz, Zeg is a brutal, militaristic man. forcing any who don't directly serve as his army to be slaves he abuses and works to his heart's content.

When our hero Kain waltzes into town, Zeg is soon contacted by Bal Caz for a duel in the middle of the city to the death, which Zeg accepts.However, before the duel gets underway, Zeg and Bal Caz call a temporary truce when Burgo, a slave trader, shows up to auction slaves. Zeg is shown to regularly purchase slaves brought to him from Burgo, using them as work force members and/or servants around his abode. In addition? Unlike Bal Caz, Zeg regularly kills slaves for entertainment, having a woman stripped and thrown into a tank of water to drown...something he indicates he does regularly with some variation as to method of execution for a laugh.

Zed has also captured a young sorceress woman named Naja, hoping to force her to use her magics to create for him the Sacred Sword of Yura, which Zeg will then use to lay waste to Bal Caz and all his forces and lord over the city as king. Naja, a former acquaintance of Kain, is loathe to assist Zeg, but Zeg compels her by threatening to behead her elderly father, and then says he'll hand Naja over to his men to "use as they will" when he's done. Kain does help Naja escape, but she's captured by Bal Caz...Zeg, to gain an advantage, captures Bal Caz's lizard advisor and threatens to kill him if Bal Caz doesn't trade. Bal Caz, who deeply cares for said lizard, agrees. Upon discovering from this how Kain has betrayed him, Zeg tricks Kain and has him paralyzed from a venomous sting. He then has Kain violently beaten, before he decides to...stop playing around.

Zeg proposes a truce with Bal Caz...only to betray him, murder him, and then has his forces massacred, before sending his troops out in the city, massacring a large amount of innocents to force everyon to just submit to him. Unfortunately for Zeg, this doesn't last, as the slaver Burgo shows up and promptly slaughters Zeg and his troops, pissed off due to the fact that Bal Caz had poisoned a few of Burgo's soldiers, then framed Zeg for it. At this point, Kain arrives back and personally finishes off Burgo and his forces, saving the day.

Redeeming Qualities?

Zip.

Heinous standard?

Of the three villains, Zeg's the worst. He treats his slaves far worse than Bal Caz, regularly has them tortured and murdered as entertainment and causes a large amount of bloodshed. Anything Bal Caz does, Zeg does the same and worse, enslaving and abusing dozens of people, regularly killing any villagers who stand up to him, keeping Naja as his prisoner and threatening to kill her father should she resist his orders, tricks Bal Caz into a truce only to slaughter and several of his troops and innocent villagers, and ultimately, Zeg's final plan is to use the Sacred Sword to annihilate all who stand against him, while Bal Caz and Burgo are relatively content with their own lots.

Conclusion?

I say keep Zeg

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#89575: Jul 10th 2017 at 7:46:32 PM

[tup]

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

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