During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
(sorry if this have already been debated, google didn't found anything conclusive when I google'd complete monster gharnef) Just saw this thread and the very tight requirements to fit in, and I saw Gharnef being listed on the page of Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem .
- Gharnef, who first appeared in Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, turns evil and later killed Linde's dad, Miloah, solely because their master gave him the Aura spellbook. Gharnef led the attack on Altea that killed King Cornelius, stealing the Falchion and kidnapping Elice. He brainwashed Tiki into attacking Marth and manipulated Hardin, corrupting him via the Darksphere. He also kidnaps four innocent girls, Elice, Nyna, Rena, and Maria, as sacrifices for Medeus's resurrection. Worse, this also causes a huge war that turns the continent to hell and ruins the lives of many. In the Japan-only remake New Mystery of the Emblem: Heroes of Light and Shadow, he brainwashed Eremiya, the kindhearted caretaker of a destroyed orphanage, to make her the horrible Tyke-Bomb fought by Marth's group. When defeated, Gharnef restored her memories, purely to mock her as she died in despair.
All of this is true, except Mystery of the Emblem (or at least the remake, I can't speak for the SNES game, didn't played it) also establish that Gharnef was once an at least decent person who got corrupted by the darksphere influence, much like he did to Hardin. It nevers has an onscreen impact, (it's only explained in dialogues) unlike Hardin who at least get a Dying as Yourself moment, but following this, doesn't that void the whole "capacity to make moral choices" thing, and therefore means Gharnef cannot be this trope ?
edited 10th Jul '17 1:28:55 PM by Yumil
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."The game establishes's Gharnef Start of Darkness is when Gotoh explicitly made miloah his favorite, giving him the aura spell, which prompted gharnef to use the darkshpere to create something that could rival the power of Aura. It's never explicitely stated he was a paragon of virtue, but he was at least decent enough being to be one of Gotoh's pupil.
In order to recruit Arlen in mystery, Wendell makes a point Arlen and pre-corruption Gharnef are Not So Different as Arlen is jealous of Merric, Wendell's favorite pupil, to which he gave the spell Excalibur. Said Arlen have an Heel Realization from it and join sides with Marth and Merric. So that tends to show that Gharnef was originally an average person, with human flaws (Green-Eyed Monster ), that were blown out of proportion by the darksphere (just like it corrupted Hardin by amplifying his bitterness over Nyna and Camus). He probably wasn't the nicest person out there, but he wasn't the monster he became, and, without the darksphere, could have been a decent person by the time the games take place.
edit : found these looking at the character page of Gharnef.
- Good Is Not Nice: Pre-corruption, obviously — he's been described as having been a just man, but lacking a caring heart.
- Green-Eyed Monster: His jealousy of being passed up of inheriting Aura to his rival Miloah drove him to steal the Darksphere.
- Start of Darkness: He was once a man of justice, but the Darksphere ended up corrupting him after he stole it.
edited 10th Jul '17 1:55:22 PM by Yumil
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."Well, here's how things works for Hardin, when controlled by the darksphere, and so theorically, how they work for gharnef : The man was jealous of two persons in his life : Marth, because he was the one entrusted with the fire emblem during the events of shadow dragon, while he, the brother of the ruler of the kingdom who had it, just got to watch him receiving the relic and follow him in his liberation of the continent, and Camus, who was the person Nyna, his wife, truly loved. Also, said wife only married him for political reasons, long short story. None of this is shown in the first game, where he's an unambiguously heroic figure who follows you in your quest, almost Marth's Lancer. He's also supposed to be a good, kind ruler. It's also woth mentionning when initially meeting marth, he willingly offers to Marth to be the one to lead the army and be the one to get the glory.
"Hardin: “I’ve left Princess Nyna someplace safe for now. We need to decide who will command here. I was hoping it would be you. Marth: Me? But, Sir Hardin, you are far more qualified- Hardin: Tsk, Princess Nyna would not be pleased to hear us nitpicking over who will be listed in the history books. Take command, so we can oust this Macedonian scum and be done with it." - Hardin and Marth, Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon
When controlled by the darksphere, he becomes a Tin Tyrant with several level of jerkass taken, and, If I remember correctly, he tries to make a statement or two about being Not Brainwashed and doing what he's doing (invading the whole continent without warning, allowing the ressurrection of the two big bads of the previous game, and being a dick in general) because he wants to.
"Hardin: Heh heh heh... Marth, sweet and naive as ever. Why do you think I attacked Altea? Because I utterly despised you. In the last war, just because you were Anri's descendant... Nyna entrusted you with the Fire Emblem, and made you the League's commander. "The Prince of Light"... More like "insolent brat"! Without my help, you would have died long, long ago. So don't act so high and mighty!! I have always despised you since then. I put up with you for Nyna's sake, but I knew we'd have to settle things sooner or later. It has nothing to do with the orb! Marth: Hardin... Is that really how it was...? I had no idea that... that you hated me so... Hardin: Hmph... That's why you're still just a boy. Marth! Come to me. I'll shove this lance through your heart!! There's only enough room in this continent for one hero, and that hero is ME!" - Hardin and Marth, Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem
But the second you empty his lifebar, he reverts back to the man he was in Shadow dragon (as in, physiclally. he loses the red eyes and the sickly pale skin) and dies in Marth's arms, telling him he's deeply sorry for everything he did, and that he still loves Nyna.
"Prince... Marth... I feel as though... I've finally awoken... from a long, long nightmare... Marth... Forgive me... I tried to fight the demon inside me. ...But I wasn't strong enough. I fought so hard, but... I just couldn't beat it... I wanted to die by your hand... And now I'm finally saved... Marth... Please... Nyna... Save Nyna... Please... ...Tell her... Tell her for me... Till... till the very end... I ...loved her... always... Tell her... to please...forgive me..." -Hardin's dying words.
So the difference being controlled by the darksphere or not is pretty much the difference between Garon from fire Emblem Fates,from before the game and from during the game. It builds off the inner bitterness and angst of the people it corrupts, but it takes it so far you can't say they did it willingly. One could also make the comparaison with Lyon in sacred Stones (Ephraim route), where he claims to be the one in control and he did all he did of his own free wiil, but in the end he's just a puppet of Fomoortis believing he's doing this of his own accord, something the manakete guy of the last chapter explicitly spells out to his face (and he still don't believe it).
Also, it isn't heard of someone corrupted by the darksphere doing anything remotely good. From what is seen in the games, the thing definitely doesn't let you keep your free will. At best an illusion to have it.
edited 10th Jul '17 4:26:25 PM by Yumil
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

Uhm, why the repost?