During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
About Dahlia: I cut her from the page, but I don't think I can PM the troper because 1) I can't find them
and 2) Even if I could find them, that was posted years ago, if the one edit is anything to go by.
Oh, and OT, I Lied about not playing the first. I've played part of it. Just saying, not that it really makes much difference.
Stephenson. Bad, but not exactly CM material.
I agree with PolarPhantom about the Bagura naming. There's no need for 7+ different spellings of his name. You can add a note or something saying he's spelled different in different areas.
So about a month ago I said I'd look into the Deptford Mice series. Turns out I may have a candidate or two to propose. I still haven't read Thomas, but I just finished The Oaken Throne, so I'll be talking about that book's villain soon.
The only reason why I'm not doing it now is because I'm busy and will probably be bust for the rest of the night. And because the ending of this book pissed me off to no end. I honestly may propose two villains from this book, even though one of them may not count due to heinous standard issues.
I am that pissed off. ![]()
Coming way late to the party for the most satisfying CM deaths. Here are some:
- Scar: After a whole movie of deception and murder to make his way to the top, he is torn apart by the same hyenas he blamed for his failures as a ruler.
- Claude Frollo: After taking God's name in vain one last time, he is finally punished by falling into the burning Paris below. Plunged into the fiery pit, indeed.
- Richie Madano: This Ax-Crazy drug addict thug wasn't just beaten by Steven Seagal. Not only he was bleeding heavily, Gino put a couple of bullets on his face to really seal the deal.
- Koba: After a tense and brutal fight with Caesar, this bloodthirsty ape has the audacity to beg for mercy. Caesar has none of it and drops him to his doom.
- Bill Cipher: As smart and all knowing as he was, it took one old human conman to give him a bad deal and be erased forever from memory. One Punch Stan FTW!
- Zoran Lazarevic: He isn't just defeated by the hero in the final battle. He is pummeled to the death by the Guardians of Shamballa.
It looks like the Ancestor doesn't count, but I'm curious if the Heart of Darkness deserves an effort post. We are always wary about an Eldritch Abomination counting, but this one from Darkest Dungeon does shown a level of sadism and malevolence that puts it more on par with something like Nyarlathotep.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Satisfying CM death? Would Merged Zamasu being sliced by Future Trunks count? While he doesn't technically die, the result lacks a conscious mind and the result really can't be called Merged Zamasu anymore
After looking at the Battle Royale page, I'm surprised that the manga version of the Big Bad is on there, but not the original novel version, since they're pretty similar, but have enough differences to warrant a separate entry.
What Is The Work? Battle Royale, a 1999 dystopian novel by Koshun Takami, where high school students are forced to fight to the death.
Who Is He? Kinpatsu Sakamochi, the Big Bad of the novel, the source material counterpart to Kamon and Kitano, and the director of the Survival Program the characters compete in.
What Has He Done? When we're first introduced to him, he briefs the class on the rules of the Program. He reveals that the class's teacher tried to stop him, so he killed him and then displayed his corpse to the class to make an example. When one student, Yoshitoki Kuninobu, wonders what happened to he and Shuya's caretaker, Sakamochi brags about raping her. This makes Yoshitoki snap, and Sakamochi kills him for his outburst. Unlike in the manga, where he actually did rape the caretaker, Sakamochi lied about it in the novel simply because he knew it would set Yoshitoki off and give him an excuse to kill somebody. He then throws a knife at another student for whispering during his lecture.
Early in the Program, a girl named Megumi found out that she still had her phone on her and uses it to call her parents, only for Sakamochi to intercept the call and taunt her about getting her hopes up. Throughout the Program, he would crack jokes at the expense of the students that died. At the end of the book, he reveals that he has children of his own, and he would gladly let them compete in the Program, and he made sure to brainwash them into accepting their fate. He then tries to execute Shogo when he learned that Shuya and Noriko were still alive. Shogo manages to kill him, but not without getting fatally wounded by Sakamochi.
Mitigating Factors? He has no Freudian Excuse for his actions, unlike his movie counterpart. For the Heinous Standard, everybody else in the novel was forced to kill against their will, while Sakamochi kills people on his own volition for fun. He tries to humanize himself by talking about his family to Shogo, but he immediately throws that out the window when he says he'll gladly let them die in the Program to improve his reputation.
Final Verdict I say he qualifies.
Agree with the method of Bagura naming people said.
Also, I'd like to bring up Mechadoc: I REALLY understated his crimes. While he's telling people his Evil Plan, he uses an example of what would happen if the planets collided, with an egg and a rock. He violently smashes the egg upon the rock, leaving Bagura to be in stunned, horrified silence with an Even Evil Has Standards moment and they straight-up show what the planets colliding would look like. I can't link the episode here, as piracy rules, but look it up on Youtube, episode 47.
The worst part? He's a god-damn-freakin Karma Houdini. That's right, when he finally gets defeated, he runs away like his Monster of the Week creations did early in the series, never to be seen again. It sucks, he deserved a proper punishment.
I actually have another Jetters candidate up soon, one I'm a fair bit less sure of counting, but they do a lot with their resources.
Sakamochi.
edited 9th Jul '17 11:37:37 PM by MahStache
Sakamochi.
So its been 2 weeks since the US release of Fate Grand Order hope doineedaname reintroduces that candidate soon.
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffSo, I have doubts about this CM.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender fanfiction The Fall of the Fire Empire
- Gian is a ruthless and sociopathic Bounty Hunter, who doesn't care who is in charge of the world order or who his employers are, so long as he's paid for his murderous services. He forces a rather meek young Earthbending slave to help him uncover the rebellion base, and kills her in cold blood simply because he had no further use for her. He's also revealed to be an Earth Kingdom man who essentially exploits his own people for profit, and admits as much to Jiazin without an ounce of guilt about it.
What it means by "exploit" is pretty vague, and from the looks of it, the worst he does is kill a young girl, and while that's pretty bad, I'd hardly call that worthy of being a CM, especially considering the heinousness of the universe that the fic takes place in
edited 10th Jul '17 2:15:51 AM by Awesomekid42
It is time for discussion on C Ms in Little Witch Academia however I don't need an effortpost.
To put it simply, no one counts and I'm going to tell you why.
One of the villains in the first half is Lord Hambridge and in Episode 10 he makes a threat to "Remove the witches". The problem is that he quickly gets sidelined in once Croix appears, never even attempts with his threat and in general is no where near the heinous standard. There's also Fafnir who's just greedy and doesn't go anywhere near the heinous standard. There's the aunt of Diana but she gets a Heel–Face Turn and isn't heinous enough by the end of the episode. As for Croix she is easily the most heinous of every single character in the show and makes every other villain look like nothing in comparison and even attempted mass murder by trying to start a massive war. But she has way too many redeeming features despite her being a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing. Namely that of a Heel–Face Turn. Other than that there's the Noir Rod which is a sentient Shapeshifter that wants to blow up the planet and it is heinous enough but it possesses literally no character and it being an Evil Knockoff as well as being more powerful when absorbing negative emotions makes it's agency too weird to qualify.
I'm not surprised at this fact but considering how nasty Croix was (Who probably has the biggest Lack of Empathy and It's All About Me this year besides from Ego) I was actually looking hopeful.
There is going to be a videogame coming out early 2018 and there's an adaptation manga that has slight differences but I can't do the manga because I don't know how to find it.
edited 10th Jul '17 5:53:09 AM by ReynTime250
Hey, I've been watching for the longest time, and decided to make an account to participate.
I have two recent examples for Magic: the Gathering (which, seriously, has to have a bare minimum of 9 given how long it spanned and how many early villains were just plain depraved), the frst being Heliod, which was brought up long ago but since then forgotten apparently.
This is as he is portrayed in Godsend.
Who is Heliod? What has he done
Heliod is the sun god of the hellenic-like plane of Theros. Like Zeus, he is worshiped as the king of the gods and supposedly a fair ruler. In practice, he is actually a horrifically petty manchild who throws temper tantrums at the slightest form of disrespect. Prior to the events of the plot, he smote Arixmethes and allegedly other cities, showing that his temper tantrums have genocidal consequences.
His taxing demands for respect lead into a war with Purphoros; depending on the account, either Heliod started it due to his authority being challenged, or Purphoros had enough of the abuse and rebelled. This war is proven to have been devastating, though it did supply the planeswalker Elspeth with her sword, forged by Purphoros to kill gods.
Years later, she returns to Theros and tries to return the sword. Heliod's response is trying to reclaim the sword by trying to murder her, but with her own magic she resists. Out of fear, he offers to transform it into a spear, Godsend, and make her his champion, and sends her to his temple.
Later, he see him try to address his sister Thassa, the god of the sea. By this point the shenanigans of another antagonist, the planeswalker Xenagos, had resulted in word of Godsend spreading, as well as holes forming in the fabric of Nyx. Heliod tries to get Thassa on his good side, trying to convince her the holes were made by the sword and Purphoros, but as Thassa rejects that he violently drags her across the sky to prove his point. When she retaliates, he stabs her and leaves devastation to the sea and its life, before rage-quitting and flying away.
Later, the battles for the Godsend get bad enough that Kruphix, god of horizons, forcibly trapped all the gods in Nyx. Heliod's role is minimal - odd temper tantrum aside - until Xenagos ascends to godhood. Heliod grows furious, seeing him as an usurper and threat to his power, and blames Elspeth. Once again he tries to kill her, to no avail. He begins to grow hateful and jealous of her, as well as growing paranoid over the possibility of her ascending.
So he waited, until Elspeth finally killed Xenagos and was too weak to fight back. Already arrogant and petty as he was, here we see his most cruel side as he mocks and taunts her, taking sadistic pleasure in his power over her, stealing the Godsend away from her and finally stabbing her with it. He destroys Godsend itself, and leaves.
Any mitigating factors?
None whatsoever. He is consistently portrayed as a horrid selfish, fickle tyrant who is way over over his head. He meets any challenges to authority with open violence and is shown to fear and hate anyone remotely similar to him in power. He dismisses Xenagos as an "usurper" out to get him (and not, like, laying waste to innocent people) and his cruel towards Elspeth for rather unjustifiable reasons.
He claims he likes Thassa as a sister, but it seems to be purely on her potential to side with him in any given conflict. He violently abuses her at a whim, and she positively loathes him. As do all other gods by the end of Godsend.
Finally, he holds the distinction of being one of the few White villains to not have any sincere Well-Intentioned Extremist qualities to his character. His actions are selfish and even the most sympathetic possible interpretation for his actions (i.e. planeswalkers being a potential threat) falls flat when A) he only fights against the weaker Elspeth, letting Xenagos be at all times, B) he only considers them personal threats to himself, C) doesn't justify his sadistic tendencies.
Moral Agency
If anything it's the polar opposite. The gods of Theros are generated by belief, either from the people or from the other gods... so why is the head of the pantheon, worshiped as a bastion of goodness, such an evil dick? It's also stated that his arrogance was gradually acquired, so external factors don't seem to be a problem.
Heinousness Standard
Compared to Xenagos, the central antagonist of the story, Heliod is by far more hateable, due to his arrogant, malicious personality and horrid treatment of Purphoros, Thassa and Elspeth. By the end, everyone not who is not a worshiper despises his guts.
Now, granted, he has an in the main story a significantly smaller body count that Xenagos, but his past slaughter of Arixmethes and other cities as well as sealife makes his total body count significantly higher than Xenagos'.
Conclusions
Heliod is one of the most hated MTG villains in recent years for very legit reasons, so I'd say a keeper. It's only a matter of whereas his past genocides qualify for his heinousness standard.
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Maybe have Bagura, and then put a note where you could then list the alternative names?