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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#85651: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:21:27 PM

Hey guys its me again so I looking through some of my old entries where I found my Tomas de Torquemata entry which someone told me had some misinformation. Luckily its not enough to disqualify but necessary enough to perform a rewrite on him so take a look

Old version:

  • Assassin's Creed: Tomás de Torquemada, who also appears in Assassin's Creed II: Discovery, has already caused the annihilation of the Spanish Assassins, including its mentor, where he put them all up on stake to be burned alive for the public to watch. When he has a boy from one of the the villages he had just destroyed watch the execution, he only spares him because he is the son of King Muhammad XII and served as a bargaining chip to retrieve the Apple of Eden. When Assassins Aguilar de Nerha and Maria escapes their fate, Torquemada douses the execution grounds in flames to try and kill them, uncaring that it could kill all of the spectators there, while he retreats with the boy to Granada to make the trade. When he arrives there and completes the trade with Muhammad XII, the King of Granada, Torquemada decide to test his newly obtained Apple by forcing the king to kill his son. Fanatical, radical, and ultimately tyrannical, Tomás de Torquemada served as one of the orders most vile member, representing all of their worst qualities yet none of their better ones.

New version:

I'll send the new one to the draft page pronto feel free to comment.

edited 1st Jun '17 11:31:29 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#85652: Jun 2nd 2017 at 1:13:13 AM

That writeup looks fine as is. I'll request it.

I may work on a Resident Evil page today if things are slow at work.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85653: Jun 2nd 2017 at 1:54:38 AM

Alright, it's time. This time, I’m sure it’s the right date after Google misled me.

Here’s something I wasn’t expecting. An Effort Post for Alien Covenant, of all things.

Special thanks to ACW, kylo and Autin DR for their messages, comments and suggestions.

What is the work?

Alien Covenant is the sequel to Prometheus and another prequel to the first Alien film. Here we have some colonists travelling to a distant planet, have some major technical difficulties, and decide to travel to a closer planet that is even better than their original destination. Our heroine, Daniels, thinks it’s too good to be true.

If you think she’s wrong, you haven’t been paying much attention to one of cinema’s greatest horror franchises, have you?

Who is the candidate?

The only returning living character from Prometheus: David 8, portrayed by returning CM actor Michael Fassbender! An android created by Mr Weyland himself to uncover the origin of humanity. David has… other plans, doe.

What has he done?

Starting off in Prometheus as an amoral android who infects a guy with evil black goo to see what it does to him, David decides to graduate to full Robotic Psychopath during the ten year gap leading up to this follow up.

Elizabeth Shaw, our previous heroine, repairs him and restores his body after an Engineer (those big humanoids that I think made humanity. They’re very mysterious) ripped his head off. As thanks, he murdered her and did science stuff to her body.

Yeah.

Oh, and he takes that ship from the end of Prometheus, goes to a planet occupied by the Engineer race and uses a plague they themselves developed to wipe out all non-plant life on the planet in gruesome fashion.

Even if the Engineers might have been Abusive Precursors, sheesh, that’s cold.

The next ten years are spent conducting experiments, recreating the Aliens as portrayed in murals during Prometheus. He manages to make those horrible eggs.

Unfortunately, he needs Human Resources to continue his experiments. So he sets up a signal using recordings of Shaw singing in the hopes of leading some poor sap to his planet. Patience finally paid off when the colony ship known as the Covenant arrives.

Initially posing as an ally, he leads them to his lair in the ruined city he, himself, murdered the inhabitants of, their blackened corpses grotesquely twisted. Seeming to develop a friendship with Walter, an updated synthetic based on David that was meant to be less “human”, he teaches him how to play the flute, hoping to play The Corrupter to him.

Eventually, Canon Fodder no. 57 gets killed by one of the weird albino Aliens and David… Is pretty OK with this. He actually tries to bond with the creature while it’s having its meal (Is this the first instance of actually seeing these things eat?) The Captain walks in on him, and is understandably pissed, so he shoots the creature, to David’s horror. The good Captain demands David tell him what he’s hiding because… well, he’s a weirdo. David is happy to do some show and tell, introducing him to various Alien specimens, such as eggs and Facehuggers that he’s been engineering. He then leads the Captain down to the basement… which has a number of very much active eggs. David deceives our captain into taking a closer look at one as it opens up. Curiosity gets the better of him. And he gets a Facehugger for his trouble. Not long after, the creature bursts out of him, David calmly and patiently watching before… lifting his arms up like Jesus and the tiny Alien following suit? This film is trippy. A little trivia; our captain was “A man of faith.” What faith? No idea. Either they didn’t want to offend audiences or it’s a comment on how your faith pales before David’s actual divinity. Maybe.

So, Walter finds Shaw’s corpse, cut open as if she had an Alien within her. An ugly dissection. I hope it wasn’t a vivisection… So, Walter, also played by Sassy Fassy, confronts David. After trying to tempt him, Walter rejects him. “No one will ever love you like I do” David says, tenderly kissing Walter and sending Michael Fassbender fans completely nuts. He then brutally attacks him, leaving him for dead. “You’re such a disappointment.” Daniels does her own digging and finds some creepy ass drawings. David arrives. “What did you do with Shaw?”

“The same thing I’m going to do to you.”

So David throws Daniels around a bit, pins her down and… kisses her?

“Is that how you do it?”

Ew.

But then Walter intervenes, declaring there’s been “updates” since he was discontinued. David’s only real miscalculation. So they fight a bit, and the camera cuts away before Walter strikes the final blow.

YAY! DAVID’S TOTALLY DEAD GUYS

So, we have a Final Boss fight against the Alien, and then a Post-Final Boss fight with another Alien on the Covenant.

Daniels and her crewmate, Tennessee, are the only survivors, being put back in their cryo pods by Walter. Daniels, right before going to sleep, asks Walter about the cabin she’s gonna build in memory of her late husband, James Franco (!). Walter doesn’t seem to know what she’s talking about. Daniels takes the revelaiton poorly, David telling her “I’ll tuck in the children.” Asleep, David enters the room the colonists are sleeping in, telling the computer to play Wagner’s “The Gods Enter Valhalla”, a Call-Back to the beginning of the film. He regurgitates some Facehugger embryos and stores them with the human embryos. He then walks past the sleeping colonists, the implication being he now has a perfect breeding ground.

YES. ANOTHER ONE! Another Karma Houdini!

I’ll get my shot glass.

Heinous Standard?

Easily the worst in the Alien films, with what appears to be the genocide of an entire planet, people and animals, not to mention the ending heavily suggesting he will continue his work on the 2000 or so colonists. And he has personal murders as well, so that's always nice.

I still think that creep scientist from Alien Ressurection can be comfortably kept. He and David work on different levels, David being a super intelligent Synth who had a decade of planning and has enhanced strength and stuff. David doesn’t step on his toes.

Freudian Excuse?

Now for the fun stuff.

David didn’t have the best start. He was created by Mr Weyland to help him cheat death and David understood this for decades and felt trapped by this. David never felt like he was accepted by any humans other than Elizabeth Shaw. All around, kinda sad.

Except, well, we see what appears to be the start of his life in the opening scene, meeting Weyland for the first time. Weyland’s pretty nice to him all things considered. He lets him make music (the aforementioned Wagner), look at art, he even lets him choose his own name. And even then David is distinctly aware of his superiority. He basically says that since he won’t die and Weyland will, he is superior. Only then does Weyland become a little dickish, telling him to bring him some tea that’s right next to him. David hesitates and Weyland repeats the command, a clear power play. It’s telling David choose his name from the famous statue, a symbol of perfection, an immortal creation that has since surpassed the legacy of its sculptor.

As for humanity not accepting him he killed Shaw. The one person who was nice to him, treated him as an equal. Reduced to a science experiment. And yes, she fixed him when he was just a head. He acknowledges that she was the only person to respect him and she was indeed amiable towards him.

Excuse me for calling bullshit.

Mitigating factors?

David claims he loved Shaw, he has pictures of her up in his quarters and he even buried in a garden so she’d be close to nature. Except, we see later that he didn’t bury her, he has her on full display in his lab. I cannot recall a single time he recalls her fondly when he isn’t also trying to deceive people. Every instance of him honouring her memory seems designed to deceive whoever might look over his shoulder. He does cry over her, but only in front of Walter whom he is trying to mould into his ally.

Speaking of Walter, he seems fond of him at first, teaching him how to play the flute and trying to convince him humanity is weaker. When Walter explains the reason his model was discontinued –too human, invoking the Uncanny Valley- David is outraged. They stripped his fellow Synths of the creativity and agency he enjoys. How could they? But when Walter, who is implied to have more agency than anybody realises (let alone himself), confronts David and rejects his philosophy, David tries to kill him without remorse. Not before saying “No one will love you like I do.” I am wont to believe he would act the same way to any synth that rejected his plans, even those of his own model. Of course, we only have Walter, who he tried to kill so coldly and never seems sorry for it, so, with your permission, I shall generalise to every other synth since I have literally nothing else to go on: David only cares about other synths if they share his ideals, otherwise they are nothing but “disappointments.”

Speaking of love, yes. David understands it. Walter gave his arm protecting Daniels from one of those albino Aliens, which David thinks is love. Walter claims it’s just duty, but David disagrees, believing that giving up something of yourself to protect someone else can be nothing other than love. And yet for Shaw, whom he “loved”, he did not sacrifice anything. In fact, he took everything from her.

Also, when he says he’ll do to Daniels what he did to Shaw, he kisses her. This reminds me of Thomas Eichorst of The Strain’s crush on that Jewish girl and how he tried to live out his fantasies on Dutch by raping/eating her, which we decided invalidated that mitigating factor. I don’t know if the writers were going for something similar, but I got that feeling and I think I’m glad that uncomfortable thing ended when it did. He also kissed Walter before he tried to kill him. His love is twisted. For him, to love is to possess, to do with as you please.

He claims he pitied Weyland when he died, but pity is not necessarily kind, it can be scornful, like when Ronan called the screams of Drax’s family “pitiful” or when Luke said he pitied Papa Palps. And he was still trying to get Walter on his side. Not much else to say here.

No issues on Moral Agency. Much is made of how similar to humans David is and as far as I can tell none others of his model became genocidal god scientist emperors. Indeed, the only Moral Agency issue was in Prometheus when he said he hoped Weyland die so he can be free, implying something in his programming prevented him from rebelling. And Weyland’s dead and he is clearly free. Of note, he is far less “robotic” than he was in Prometheus.

He is Wicked Cultured, a big fan of music and art. But this ties into his desire to create. He still considers humanity inferior and while he may admire their creations and was a big fan of ‘’Laurence Of Arabia’’ he has no love for the creators, only their immortal art.

The big one, I think, is his relationship with the Aliens. Does he truly care about them or does he just care about them as an extension of himself, a symbol of his auteurship? You can go either way, but I’d argue the latter. Remember how he told Walter synths should be able to create? Well, Aliens can’t. They can only destroy. They are animals. But David knows how to bond with them as illustrated with his interactions with the one that captain shot. He learned from Weyland’s example. Never create something you can’t control. Never make something better than you. He calls them a “perfect organism”, a nice little Call-Forward to Ash as well as a revelaiton to his world view: Only synths should think. Organics should be subservient. So when David agonisingly screams at the albino Alien’s death, I think it agony at his creation dying. At his hard work being ruined by a lesser being. His “perfect organism” gunned down by a flawed creator.

But I think this is the trickiest aspect of his character and I expect challenges on this.

Oh, and he might be back for a sequel. But apparently the film isn’t doing so well and even if it was you wanna wait another five years to discuss him again? Let’s go the Oberhauser and Cipher route and decide on him now.

Conclusion.

By far my hardest EP, but I would add him. The biggest problem is he is so dishonest. In this case, I think his actions speak louder than words, invalidating his redeeming qualities.

He follows the bad example of Koba, going from morally ambiguous wildcard to absolute dickhole. A synthetic mad scientist with a god complex that tramples on every mitigating factor given to him

I do expect at least some resistance to him, and they’re not wrong. David 8 is one of the most complex, richly written characters we’ve had come through here and I respect you for disagreeing.

As for me?

In the opinion of this humble troper, amateur writer and part-time librarian, David is a right horrible cunt.

edited 2nd Jun '17 1:58:19 AM by PolarPhantom

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#85654: Jun 2nd 2017 at 2:42:04 AM

[tup]David.

There's no cure for being a cunt.

edited 2nd Jun '17 4:24:58 AM by k410ren

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#85655: Jun 2nd 2017 at 2:51:35 AM

[up][up][up] Yeah the quality of the write up isn't the issue its the misinformation in it. A trooper told me that the Tomas didn't deliberately scorch his own execution ground, but rather Agualar did it to as a plan to escape by using the oil that was already spilled the. So I watch the movie again and that tropes was correct. The spectators who died were simply unfortunate circumstances .

[up][up] Now for David I think I can give him a [tup]

edited 2nd Jun '17 2:55:24 AM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#85656: Jun 2nd 2017 at 3:03:28 AM

David sounds like a [tup]. Certainly an interesting one.

People discuss Kirby villains a lot and that they all either are GD Vs, fail the standard, or have no agency. I was wondering about Zero though, considering Gooey is Dark Matter (made from Zero) and is on the good side. Is Gooey evidence that it has a moral agency?

and also, when Zero's posessing the Ripple Queen in the Kirby 64 bad end (if I'm remembering right it's it posessing her, not dark matter) he smiles (with her face). this implies it does have emotions, but needs a vessel to show them through, like the Enchantress from shovel knight. i'm not gonna ep it though unless people think it's worth it.

edited 2nd Jun '17 4:33:25 AM by MahStache

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#85659: Jun 2nd 2017 at 6:05:03 AM

MODOK can certainly be presented in a terrifying way, Just look at this picture here https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/e/e5/Fall_of_the_Hulks_Alpha_Vol_1_1_Finch_Variant_Textless.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20091001130108

Most of the time however, I can't take him seriously^^

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#85660: Jun 2nd 2017 at 6:35:24 AM

[tup] to David, any mitigating factors appear to be an act.

[up][up][up][up] Having emotions doesn't necessarily imply moral agency. I don't know enough about Kirby to say what the deal with Gooey is. I also don't know if the other issues with Kirby villains would still apply, i.e. lacking characterization

edited 2nd Jun '17 6:36:03 AM by TommyFresh

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#85661: Jun 2nd 2017 at 6:40:57 AM

[up]Yeah having emotions doesn't mean moral agency, I just thought to point that out seperately because it shows it's not just a mindless Eldritch Abomination (it's an eldritch abomination clearly lacking the mindless part) but it does have emotions. It has a Lack of Empathy though.

edited 2nd Jun '17 6:59:09 AM by MahStache

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#85662: Jun 2nd 2017 at 6:59:08 AM

No to David. I saw the film and to be honest, it looked like David really did care about Shaw and did regret killing her, seeing it as a "necessary sacrifice." Even when he's alone he plays music for her picture. And the grave may not contain her body but he still put a monument to her somewhere he thought she'd like. I feel like David's a 99% monster.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85665: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:11:15 AM

I'm inclined to agree. David's a monster, but I think there's a bit of an attempt to explain away his redeeming qualities.

Yes, he killed Shaw, and yes he dissected her, but he still went to the trouble of setting up a place to remember her that he seems to regularly honor. David's bizarre twisted way of thinking is that Shaw had to die for the 'greater good' in his pursuit of the perfect life form. This is not mutually exclusive to loving her, and does not make his guilt and sorrow of it fake.

edited 2nd Jun '17 7:11:29 AM by Lightysnake

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#85666: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:14:00 AM

I have to downvote David as well. LOVED Fassbender's performance as both androids, but the clincher for me is when he plays a piece on his flute to eulogize Elizabeth Shaw when he's alone. THEN his 'brother' Walter walks in on him. I would have loved for him to count, but I'm having a hard time reframing that Due to the Dead moment as him just being manipulative when he lived by himself on that planet for many years with nobody to manipulate.

Compare him to the other qualifier from the Alien series, Dr. Mason Wren, who counts more for reasons of bad/lazy writing. (He's an asshole, and that's all there is to him.) David is far more complicated in regards to his posthumous feelings for Dr. Shaw. If he were written to be a Complete Monster, he would either not care about her death, or he would celebrate it, not mourn her.

edited 2nd Jun '17 7:19:56 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#85667: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:14:07 AM

Given OE's points about David II'll switch to [tdown].

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#85668: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:14:17 AM

Yeah, I'm inclined to say no as well.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#85669: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:25:55 AM

I'm leaning to a tentative [tup] for David.

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#85670: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:27:02 AM

Should I effort-post the Kirby bad guy? I know that Kirby has been discussed a lot here but as far as I know this specific villain hasn't been brought up much due to moral agency being questionable, but Gooey proves his "species" does have one. Is it worth an EP do you think?

And that new thing on David is interesting but I'm going to stay [tup] for now. He still does a loooooot of stuff. It's not mitigating.

edited 2nd Jun '17 7:27:39 AM by MahStache

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#85671: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:31:49 AM

Unsure on David. Leaning yes, but the movie just seems WEIRD.

Also, as for the Engineers getting killed...they DID develop said plague, so it seems more of a case of Hoist by Their Own Petard.

As for that Kirby villain: Zero? Does he even have a personality? Creepy as fuck though (there's a reason he's the image at NightmareFuel.Kirby).

edited 2nd Jun '17 7:34:29 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85672: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:34:02 AM

Wait, wait...

A mitigating factor doesn't stop being mitigating because of other stuff you do. You can commit genocide, conduct torturous experiments, conqueror whole planets and drown a few infants, but if you have a scene of playing with your baby daughter, you're still not going on the list.

David's crimes do not change that he feels regret and remorse over Shaw and regularly mourns her. Since I know this will come up, here's a contrast:

Ego kills Meredith Quill because he sees his love as a weakness and wants to purge it from himself by killing her. David, by contrast, kills Shaw because he feels has to move forward with creating new life, but feels awful over it

edited 2nd Jun '17 7:36:08 AM by Lightysnake

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#85673: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:37:27 AM

I'm sure there are some examples of CM's enforcing Hoist by Their Own Petard on a character. Best I can think of isTarkin using the Death Star to wipe out the rebels stealing the plans and also kill Krennic and both Tarkin and Krennic were CM's.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#85674: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:40:15 AM

[up] True, but that wasn't Tarkin's worst act.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85675: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:43:00 AM

Ah, yes.

I overlooked that moment.

I apologise, I simply forgot. I shall give it a few more days before tallying up all the votes for a final time.

David's 7 to 7, by my count. Oh well.

edited 2nd Jun '17 7:44:29 AM by PolarPhantom


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