TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85377: May 30th 2017 at 7:53:18 PM

....man, so they basically made Cho'gall responsible for...a lot.

I'm giving a yea but my only question is...does having two heads impact him in any way? Is it a King Ghidorah situation?

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#85378: May 30th 2017 at 7:55:07 PM

RE: Light Snake

Cho'gall mostly acts like The Dividual, but in the bastion of Twilight raid, Gall(Cyclops head) is a little more crazy due to corruption. Even then, they always agree.

edited 30th May '17 7:57:03 PM by Monsund

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#85379: May 30th 2017 at 7:56:49 PM

[up][up]Yeah, both heads have a mind of their own, one being Cho and the other Gall. It doesn't really effect his inclusion in any way though as both agree on everything and the narrative almost always treats him as one character of Cho'gall.

edited 30th May '17 7:57:07 PM by LoreDeluxe

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85380: May 30th 2017 at 8:00:48 PM

No worries then, just wanted to clarify that...Keeper.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#85381: May 30th 2017 at 8:05:21 PM

Personally, I think Cho'gall is a much better character now than simply being The Dragon that he was for much of the game's history.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#85384: May 30th 2017 at 8:18:13 PM

[tup] to David Banner and Cho'gall.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#85386: May 30th 2017 at 8:23:01 PM

[tup] Lyndon, Dr. David Banner, and Cho'gall.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#85387: May 30th 2017 at 8:23:28 PM

Wow, they seriously Blizzarded Cho'gall. I'm inclined to think it's probably for the better, though. [tup] for inclusion.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#85388: May 30th 2017 at 8:50:01 PM

So I guess only Red Skull is the only big well-known comic villain with a consistent record of being a CM left.....

Nope. The 90s Spider-Man TV series has a version that doesn't qualify.

I for one like the portrayal of Injustice!Superman, it shows even the best of us may fall the most hardest.

And entirely misses the point of the character in the process. Bad shit happens to Superman all the time in the comics. The idea that he'd suddenly lose it because of the actions of the goddamn Joker...no. Just no. In any case, if someone wants to debate this in, say, the Superman thread, I'd be happy to continue the discussion there.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#85389: May 30th 2017 at 8:55:40 PM

[up] I've seen some iterations of him that have been through worse and didn't go nearly as insane, he's lost Lois in other storylines before

[tup] David banner

edited 30th May '17 9:47:29 PM by Mediawatcher

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#85391: May 30th 2017 at 9:09:20 PM

Wow, what'd I miss? [tup] David Banner.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#85392: May 30th 2017 at 9:54:20 PM

It's after midnight where I am, but not ready to begin on Designated Survivor just yet. Will have it posted within the day though.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#85393: May 30th 2017 at 9:54:35 PM

Yea to Cho'gall... sounds like he's got quite a bit on his hands with the recent revelations.

Alright, for tonight's candidate, a real doozy...

What's the setting?

This one comes the Chaos! Comics universe... a shared universe published by the titular Chaos Comics, which went from 1994 to 2002. A perfect example of comics published within the Dark Age of Comics, Chaos Comics is probably most recognizable for characters and titles like Lady Death and Evil Ernie. The usual trappings of the Dark Age aside, the comics actually had some damn good art and designs and some fun storylines. Now, the one we focus on today is actually the finale of the comics... the universe's big crisis crossover, the "Armageddon" arc. The candidate today is none other than the titular Armageddon, the Father of Fear.

Who is Armageddon? What has he done?

Once one of the Chaos Lords who held cruel reign over the primordial chaos that once comprised the universe, Armageddon started to become more ambitious and eventually proclaimed himself utterly superior to his kin, and decided to reduce all of the chaos to total entropy and make himself the sole being in existence. Armageddon waged an attack against his fellow Chaos Lords in an event that would be later called the Chaos War, a battle that cost many of the lives of the Chaos Lords and many of the first beings to ever live at Armageddon's hand, but the battle was eventually won, sparking a chain reaction that destroyed the formless chaos and gave birth to reality. Armageddon was sealed for no less than thirteen billion years in a galactic structure called the Forever Wall. Turns out... the Forever Wall isn't so forever. In the battle between Lady Death and fellow Chaos Lord Genocide that closes off Lady Death: Crucible, a lance from Genocide hurtles off into space and cracks the Forever Wall. Armageddon immediately takes the opportunity and breaks forth from his seal, and decides to set a course to the Nexus of All Things... that being Earth, the foundation of all existence.

In the midst of the usual batshit insanity happening on Earth, a colossal, green giant, borne of Armageddon, sets up Armageddon's arrival by unleashing an "extinction wave," killing dozens of people around it on Armageddon's presumed order. Armageddon finally arrives at Earth, ensnaring a space station as he moves towards the planet and killing everyone on board. Armageddon lands smack dab in a hellish crop circle in the middle of Wyoming, his presence felt by every major player in the Chaos Comics universe — and they quickly realize that Armageddon poses a threat unlike any other.

Armageddon immediately proves worthy of his name; seconds after landing, Armageddon kills everything within one-hundred miles of himself, down to the microbes, before plunging his tendrils into the Earth and resurrecting all of the millions he's killed as tortured, abominated parodies of themselves, before announcing himself as Armageddon to the entire planet — and that nobody can stop him. With that, Armageddon unleashes all of his twisted servants to commit massacres worldwide, butchering tens of thousands of people and obliterating entire cities through them and driving the entire planet into panic. While attempts are made to fight off Armageddon's creatures, they can't be fended off forever and the vast death tolls continue to rise. Ultimately, Armageddon sics another one of those giants on Los Angelos, and has it release another extinction wave... this one proving large enough to wipe out everyone in LA at once.

Immediately following this, a squadron of armed forces, tanks and planes attacks Armageddon in a futile attempt to fight him off. This simply annoys Armageddon, and he wipes out the entire squadron, unharmed but annoyed. His way of blowing off steam? Spitefully exterminate thirty percent of the world's populace in one fell swoop. Armageddon's forces continue to kill more and more people, Armageddon's tentacles bursting out to wreak even further destruction and causing more widespread destruction, completely wiping out Tokyo and many other big cities. In the midst of this, Armageddon decides to make some allies, communicating with Evil Ernie and trying to tempt him into unleashing a nuclear holocaust all across the planet in his desire to initiate worldwide Megadeath, goading Ernie into allying with him in his prepared attempt to eliminate any and all resistance once and for all. For once, Ernie actually makes a sensible decision and tells the Chaos Lord to piss off. Armageddon screams that all that who don't serve him will be exterminated, and tries to kill Ernie then and there.

It's at that time we also learn about Armageddon's origins in the Chaos War and his ultimate goal. Armageddon seeks nothing less than the extermination of all life across all reality, eliminating all that exists out of nothing more than sheer egomania and a desire to make the ashes that remain revolve around him alone.

Armageddon, still seeking for allies — and conveniently withholding that he'll kill them too once he enacts his plans of total universal destruction — makes an alliance with Purgator, who was cast down to Earth by Lucifer, and sends her to wipe out Lady Death and her allies. Meanwhile, a cult of thousands of followers led by the Savior (an enemy of Purgatori), under the belief that appealing to Armageddon will allow them to be spared as the rest of the world is reduced to dust. Armageddon's reaction to this? Gleefully incinerate all of them as they beg to understand why their god is forsaking them for their loyalty. This is ultimately what kicks off the final battle. Lady Death herself arrives to stop Armageddon's perversion of reality and all the needless death... pretty much the rest of the world's populace is killed by Armageddon's slaughterers at this point, and whatever's left up is cleaned up by Ernie launching his nukes. As the battle wages on, Armageddon decides to Mind Rape the daughter of Genocide, stating that Genocide — a universal conqueror and destroyer with millions of bodies in own right — was a pupil of his, tormenting Vex with painful visages.

One of Vex's allies manages to stop the torture and actually does manage to hurt Armageddon, although not much... and, around the same time, sick of Armageddon's wide death in her own right, Purgator attempts to betray Armageddon and drink his blood to steal his power. This badly backfires, poisoning Purgator horribly before Armageddon has his servants horribly savage her. The battle finally comes to a head when Oblivia — the child of order itself — swoops into battle to confront Armageddon directly (and we get a hilarious line from her too before she does: "Armageddon! Got your attention, now? Good! I'm the child of light and darkness, the chosen for this fight — and I'm from East LA!"). Oblivia finally manages to strike down Armageddon and destroy him for good. However... Armageddon, in his last moments, decides if he can't live, nobody else can.

As one last act of spite, Armageddon decides to take all of reality to the grave with him and unleashes a gigantic wave of sheer uncreation that consumes everything as he perishes. Thankfully, although all of reality is erased, Mitchell Wardlow, a scientist studying the effects of reality shortly before Armageddon's attack, manages to use his research to become an entity named Lord Chaos, proceeding to recreate reality as eight new worlds and undoing all of Armageddon's evil for good.

Any mitigating factors?

The Chaosverse has a really high heinous standard. No one character is a saint, obviously; on the heroes side, we have Lady Death pushing Evil Ernie to mass slaughter, on the villains' side, we have the horrible mass-murdering Chaos Lords like Lucifer and Genocide, and everyone in between is responsible for some manner of horrible mass murder, torture, and atrocities in some form or another.

...None of them can hold a candle to Armageddon. Armageddon is the singular most powerful and utterly vile out of any character in this universe, period. He has a body count of billions, an attempted body count of hundreds of trillions if not even more, exterminates thirty percent of all life on Earth because he gets slightly annoyed with some planes, creates millions of agonized, mutated slaves out of his victims, and ultimately decides to drag all of reality to the grave with him. Not one single villain can compare to him in just how much they can get to. The only one who comes even remotely close is Genocide, and given that Armageddon states that he taught Genocide, this makes him in part somewhat responsible for the assload of atrocities Genocide's done as well.

There's nothing else of note. Chaos Lords have full agency, Armageddon has absolutely no excuse or remotely redeeming moments, and easily has sufficient characterization — he's a petty, arrogant monster who wants to obliterate all existence purely because he's convinced he's superior to all other life, including his fellow Chaos Lords — and polevaults a hundred miles over the baseline standard before nuking it to molten glass. There's really not much to talk about here.

Conclusion?

What else can I say at this point? Armageddon is one of the easiest damn keeps I've ever proposed.

Thoughts?

Edited by Scraggle on Jul 12th 2019 at 12:11:13 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#85395: May 30th 2017 at 10:03:37 PM

Easy 'Yup' to Armaggedon, who no doubt has one of the most evil sounding names of any CM.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#85396: May 30th 2017 at 10:06:18 PM

No objections whatsoever to Armageddon, David Banner, and Cho'Gall. [tup] to all three.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#85397: May 30th 2017 at 10:15:25 PM

[tup] Armageddon, [tup] David Banner, and [tup] Cho'Gall

@Ambar: The logic behind the idea of Superman's turn to evil in Injustice was probably "Superman's not dealt with the Joker enough to know what he's really capable of, so he was unprepared on how to handle the results of Joker's acts of madness. Unlike Batman. Oh, if only he were more like Batman!"

Glad I wasn't around for the "the Azog argument strikes back" debacle, but I did notice Cinder Fall's current status being brought up and....let me get this straight: the very same people who'd rejected the notion that Theon Greyjoy deserved what he got at Ramsay's hands due to being an Asshole Victim are now all "Cinder deserves everything she got from Salem, so cathartic to see that bitch suffer!" ??? Guys, are you serious right now?

And I get that Cinder's crimes far outclass those of Theon's, but both characters crossed the Moral Event Horizon prior to the torment they endured, so feeling they got exactly what they deserved is just as legitimate as feeling bad for them. So this comes off as a Double Standard that's more than a bit gross and uncomfortable, and if in some way Cinder ends up being disqualified from counting, and possibly Salem ends up counting, than it's really going to look awkward in retrospect.

Then again, this is coming from someone who feels Cinder ought to not be on the trope, not because I see anything sympathetic or redeemable in the character but because having a villain who hasn't been definitively written out of the story on the trope reeks of "this villain crossed the Moral Event Horizon in an appalling way, so let's add the CM label to them ASAP" that we ought to be refraining from doing nowadays. Cinder's once again a part of the story, therefore her arc is not over, period. We don't include characters with still ongoing arcs.

edited 30th May '17 10:17:37 PM by ANewMan

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#85398: May 30th 2017 at 10:17:46 PM

RE: Scraggle

I'm not familiar with the series, but Armageddon sounds like a keeper.

[tup]

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#85399: May 30th 2017 at 10:38:25 PM

[up][up] Way I see it? Cinder's situation is nowhere near as bad as Theon's torture at the hands of Ramsay, which if I remember correctly involved such lovely things as goddamn castration. So I have no problem with people being happy that she got what she deserved myself.

That, and well, you kinda answered your own question with Cinder's evil being more severe than Theon's. But eh, I've always been a sucker for seeing particularly nasty villains get kicked in the balls by karma so that's just me.

edited 30th May '17 10:41:05 PM by FriedWarthog

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#85400: May 30th 2017 at 10:48:58 PM

Yeah, that Theon argument does not work. At all. And seeing as I'm currently watching through the series for the first time and have JUST seen those episodes, I'm pretty well-versed on the matter.

Theon was brutally tortured for days on end, had many parts him flayed, and ultimately had his PENIS removed, with his only "notable" crimes being killing two kids and some random people which, while bad, isn't particularly heinous in GoT, all while being obviously conflicted about it and ultimately acting out of a desire to be loved.

Cinder? Lost an eye, has a super sore throat, and is weakened and treated as a child, after unleashing monsters to kill hundreds, if not thousands of people, physically and emotionally abusing her partners, executing numerous enemies with sick glee, and taking sadistic joy in her crimes, all of which are HELLA unique and horrifying for the setting.

Theon's situation is nothing like Cinder's. Not. At. All. Theon didn't deserve what he got; Cinder deserves WORSE than what she got.

edited 30th May '17 10:53:05 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

Total posts: 326,048
Top