During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
And, you are fully ignoring the context of the rest of the letter. He draws explicit comparisons to them and men, saying orcs are inclined to be bad (moreso than men, who are also drawn to the negative), but not irredeemably so.
Monsund, this is getting a bit frustrating on you ignoring evidence. Lurtz had literally just been 'born' as an Uruk-Hai. He's lashing out violently in clear context, to Saruman's approval, but never acts this wantonly violent again at random. And none of Azog's positive relationships are evident onscreen, so the filmmakers making comments on them is irrelevant.
edited 30th May '17 6:55:12 PM by Lightysnake
Some people believe that the story doesn't actually indicate that Orcs are inherently Chaotic Evil at the time of Azog(I don't believe they are myself), some do.
There's no point in debating that further since it's already at a standstill. Just vote whichever one you feel is correct and end it there. That's all we can really do.
Shadow?RE: Lighty Snake
That letter says maybe the soul of an orc in the afterlife can be redeemed by Eru, who is god himself.
Tolkien is consistent that orcs and trolls cannot be good so long as they live.
He states orcs are irredeemable(at least by elves and men).
Lurtz literally slowly strangled the orc who helped him get up for no reason. The only time we see him again, he's attacking Boromir. Not a lot of time for characterization. Later in the Jackson films, Ugluk beheads one of his soldiers and gleefully eats him, contrast the book where Ugluk values the lives of his soldiers and dislikes cannibalism.
Basically only a divine miracle from God could save an orc according to Tolkien.
edited 30th May '17 6:58:33 PM by Monsund
RE: Irene
Chaotic is irrelevant. Tolkien's orcs are usually Lawful Evil according to Dn D.
This is more reason why Always Chaotic Evil needs a name change.
RE: Lighty Snake
He states directly in the letter, perhaps the creation of such evil is part of Eru's plans. Tolkien directly in that same letter states Trolls never show goodness. He's clear they're naturally bad.
Later letters continue with Orcs being innately evil.
Again it basically says orcs cannot redeem themselves in their lifetimes.
You can ask any Tolkien scholar, they'll tell you orcs cannot be redeemed in their mortal lives.
You cannot state Tolkien didn't intend orcs to be innately evil.
edited 30th May '17 7:10:10 PM by Monsund
Please drop it. The candidate is already approved, so your arguments are becoming futile.
Now, can we move on to another candidate?
Here is another candidate from Warcraft that I didn't initially think counted until the recent Chronicles volume 2 greatly expanded his backstory.
Who is he?
Cho'gall is one of the most powerful if not most powerful ogre mages to ever live, second in command of the Shadow Council under Gul'dan, and the founder and chieftain of the Twilight's Hammer clan. He just also happens to have served the Old Gods, and by extension the Void, for the vast majority of his life. These days most poeple either know him simply as The Dragon to Gul'dan and later Deathwing, or as that single character two people control togetther in Heroes of the Storm. I'm here to present that Cho'gall was always in control one way or the other and has been playing everyone he ever allied with to bring about the apocalypse.
What has he done?
Cho'gall was born a rare two-headed ogre in the city of Highmaul, capitol of the ogre Gorian Empire on Draenor. As a two-headed ogre, he was naturally gifted with magic and quickly grew in power as he got older. Cho'gall sought more power and prestige so he rallied the commoners to his cause, but was hated by the aristocracy for his arrogance and power lust. A failed assassination attempt drove him from the city and into exile where he swore vengeance on the Gorian Empire. Cho'gall sought out ways to gain more power and came across Gul'dan who taught him the ways of fel magic and of the Burning Legion. Cho'gall felt no loyalty to Gul'dan or the Shadow Council and cared nothing for demons and their ideology, and quickly decided he would turn his back on them if they ceased being useful.
Soon Gul'dan learned of the Pale Orcs who lived beneath the crashed Draenei ship of Oshu'gun. They worshiped the dark energies of the Void seeping from the Naaru (pure light being) there, and this power intrigued Cho'gall. Gul'dan sent Cho'gall to subjugate the Pale and bring their magics into the Horde. The pale orcs told Cho'gall of the Hour of Twilight, a prophesied doomsday where shadow would snuff out all life in the universe. Initially, Cho'gall simply told the Pale the Horde would help bring about the Hour of Twilight, but didn't believe it himself. This all changed when Cho'gall began learning shadow magic and heard the whispers of the Void Lords. He realized the Hour of Twilight was real and devoted his whole life to bringing it about. He led the Pale into becoming agents of the apocalypse and officially formed the Twilight's Hammer clan.
Cho'gall finally got his chance at revenge following the genocide of the Draenei. Most of the ogres had fallen in line to serve the Horde but Ogres of Highmaul refused to bend the knee. He led his forces to raze the city and slaugher every ogre in the city. Cho'gall personally murdered the ogre emperor Mar'gok by chaining him to his throne with shadow magic and burning him alive with fel magic.
Cho'gall would go on to cross the Dark Portal with his clan and lead the Twilight's Hammer in the First and Second War on Azeroth. Cho'gall and the pale orcs were empowered on Azeroth as they felt the call of the Old Gods that infested Azeroth. The Pale Orcs were driven into an ecstatic frenzy but Cho'gall kept them in line with the promise that the Hour of Twilight was not far off and that helping the Horde in their conquest would appease the Old Gods. Throughout this time, the Twilight's Hammer clan swelled with followers seeking the power of shadow magic. Cho'gall led the group more like a cult than a clan and proclaimed himself as a prophet. Cho'gall soon found the Pale orcs were steadily growing out of his control, so he decided to make some use out of them. He convinced them of one final way they could serve their masters. He branded the prophecies of the Twilight's Hammer onto the skin of the Pale orcs, and skinned them all to use their flesh to make the Twilight Canticle, the codified teachings of the Void.
Cho'gall was extremely powerful, but he was also dangerously insane. The clan, less of a tribe and more of a religious cult, was devoted to bringing about the apocalypse. In his capacity as a chieftain and as the right hand of Gul'dan, Cho'gall aided his master in the creation of the death knights and the Altars of Storms, and in the transformation of normal ogres into ogre magi. Cho'gall and his clan would accompany Gul'dan on his fateful and disastrous voyage to the Tomb of Sargeras. Gul'dan and his entire Stormreaver clan were slaughtered either by escaped demons or the vengeful Horde they betrayed. Cho'gall and some of his clan managed to escape the slaughter and sail to Kalimdor where they followed the whispers of the Old God C'thun.
Cho'gall made his way to C'thun's resting place and made him base in the ruins of Ahn'Qiraj. He was followed by Garona, a half orc Gul'dan had enslaved, who sought to kill Cho'gall and gain freedom. Unbeknownst to Garona, Cho'gall still had power over here and enslaved her. He intended to use her to get close to her son Med'an, who was a subject of a prophecy. He also found use for Garona when he heard of peace talks between the Horde and the Alliance. He sent her to assassinate Alliance King Varian Wrynn, his young son Anduin, and Horde Warchief Thrall. He knew that if she failed, the two factions would blame each other and engage in open war and ignore his activities, and if she failed and died, he could capture her son Med'an all the easier.
Cho'gall's plan succeeded and all hell broke loose between the Horde and the Alliance and he even managed to capture Med'an in the process. Cho'gall intended to sacrifice Med'an and resurrect C'thun, but Garona and a few others rescued him. Cho'gall sought to use C'thun to break the barriers between Azeroth and the Elemental Planes and bring untold chaos and destruction. He unleashed elementals and abominations on the human nation of Theramore to try to retrieve Med'an, but Med'an came to him and with a lot of aid and being overpowered, he defeated Cho'gall and buried him beneath the rubble of Ahn'Qiraj.
Cho'gall survived this encounter and effectively went on to mastermind the events of the Cataclysm expansion. While Deathwing was The Heavy of the expansion, Cho'gall was the brains to Deathwing's brawn and not simply The Dragon. It was Cho'gall who sent his cult into Deathwing's hiding place in the Plane of Earth and help Deathwing recover. Cho'gall helped to enslave the Elemental Lords and summon the Old Gods' minions to the surface to strengthen his armies. While Deathwing was out burning stuff down and being a big target, Cho'gall masterminded the Twilight Hammer cult's infiltration of the various factions and spread chaos and war among his enemies. Cho'gall did everything in his power to bring about the Hour of Twilight and end all life, but he made one fatal flaw. He caught the attention of Azeroth's resident murder hobos and was slain before he could see his plans come to fruition.
Any mitigating factors?
The original reason for me never bringing Cho'gall up was that I didn't feel he really stood out compared to Gul'dan or Deathwing, but the Chronicle volume 2 changed my opinions. He had served the Void all along and always acted independently of Gul'dan and would have eventually turned on him and the Horde when given the chance. As for Deathwing, I realized it was originally Cho'gall that put the Hour of Twilight as his end goal and not Deathwing. Deathwing simply wanted destruction but didn't really have an outlet until Cho'gall came along, helped him to recover, and set Deathwing on the path. Deathwing turned out to be the greater threat in the end, but only because he's insanely more powerful than Cho'gall.
Final Verdict?
I'm now pretty confidant Cho'gall counts now and that he stands well enough apart from Gul'dan and Deathwing in his actions to become a full Complete Monster.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.

Ok, this debate is ending now. Azog was debated, and after much concern and arguments, it was agreed he fits.