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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#85326: May 30th 2017 at 5:42:45 PM

[up][up]At least for me, it wasn't really about Azog himself (who I don't really have an opinion on one way or another) and more about whether a Tolkien orc has sufficient agency to count at all, which was the crux of the debate - not helped by the fact that Tolkien himself was torn on the issue and just about everyone could pull out quotes from his notes and letters to back their position. In any case, I think the orcs as depicted in the novels, while the corrupted slaves of evil powers, have just enough individuality and sense of morality to be eligible if one is heinous enough, but I've no desire to rehash the whole thing again.

[up]How'd Cinder even get approved, anyway? I started watching RWBY a couple of months ago and as of the end of Book 4 it seems incredibly obvious that her arc is nowhere near done.

edited 30th May '17 5:43:59 PM by MasterGhandalf

ZetaRidge (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#85327: May 30th 2017 at 5:44:55 PM

[tup] to Lyndon, Ultron, and possibly Azog

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85328: May 30th 2017 at 5:45:06 PM

  • Cry for the Devil: There's been unexpected sympathy for Cinder's sorry state at the start of Volume 4. She has lost an eye, is badly scarred and struggles to speak, managing only a faint whisper. What was once a strong, powerful, commanding villain is currently no more than a broken wreck

Oh, no. Cinder got what she deserved, then.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#85329: May 30th 2017 at 5:48:02 PM

On Cinder, there is literally NOTHING sympathetic or "Cry for the Devil" about her, and I'm frankly sick and tired of people bringing it up, not just here, but other places.

Cinder DESERVES EVERYTHING SHE GOT. She lead the wholesale slaughter of an entire city, coldly executed numerous people, and is a sadistic bitch.

Seeing her lose an eye, her voice, and become an abused lackey to Salem was CATHARTIC, if anything. The constant "Poor Cinder!" And "Wow, I actually feel bad for Cinder now" junk I see around is severely disconcerting, as it makes me question whether people even remember what crap she pulled in Season 3.

Regardless, nothing has remotely disqualified Cinder, and while there are suspiciouns she might end up getting some weird redemption arc much later, she is a handy Keeper for now. So yeah.

Alright, taking a slight break from the seventies' Marvel Novels, I've got a candidate from a different Marvel novel.

What's the work?

Hulk is a 2003 film starring...well, the Hulk.

A not very good film (Like, at all), its villain didn't count there either due to signifcant redeeming features.

However, having recently stumbled across the novelization, written by Peter David, in an attempt to see if it was any better than the film it was based off of (Meh), I discovered an interesting development....the villain might just count.

Who is he?

Dr. David Banner is the main antagonist of the novel/film.

A genetic scientist working for the military, Banner was intent on developing a super serum that could amplify a soldier's strength and immune system considerably. And thus it begins...

What has he done?

Banner, uncaring of the random and sometimes deadly effects his serum could have, requested that the military supply him with human test subjects. When the military obviously refused, Banner decided to test his own formula out on himself, and while it doesn't kill him, it doesn't change much.

Eventually having a baby with his wife, Edith, Banner discovers something.....odd about the boy, Bruce.

Bruce's body would often seem to distort itself and turn a shade of green when he got agitated, and Banner, curious about what this meant, began deliberately antagonizing, sometimes physically harming, the boy to provoke this reaction. He soon realized that he had passed a weird radiation type disease onto Bruce due to his numerous experiments he had performed on himself.

Years pass, and Banner continues these experiments in secret from his wife, until one day....Banner noticed he actially had grown to CARE for Bruce, even shedding some tears at the idea that he had infected the boy with some freaky disfunction.

.....cue him, not two hours later, getting repulsed at the idea he could EVER care for a "freak" like Bruce, and be prompts to "set things back to status quo".

Thus, Banner proceeds to jam a hyperdermic needle into Bruce and begin drawing his blood, causing the boy immense pain, and leading his "condition" to start acting up again, ending with Edith learning the truth of all the experiments.

When Edith faints from seeing this, Banner HORRIBLY emotionally attacks Bruce, blaming him for "hurting" his mother and being a little monster for doing so, all as part of his plan to make the boy so emotionally repressed that he would never speak or cry out about his experimentation.

Lying to Edith later that he was working on a cure for Bruce when he is in actuality using his blood to assist his experiments, Banner is later caught by General Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross using his own son's blood, and shuts down his experiments.

Flying into a rage and blaming all of his problems on Bruce, Banner tampers with his military base's Cyclotron, an energy device that will now explode.

Uncaring that the explosion will wipe out not only all of the base and his former associates, but could go NUCLEAR and kill countless people, Banner drives home, grabs up a kitchen knife, and attempts to stab Bruce to death to "destroy the monster that ruined his life". The Never My Fault is STRONG in this one.....

When Edith ends up stabbed protecting Bruce, Banner has a moment of suprise.....then goes right back to his murderous rage, continuing to try to kill Bruce before Ross shows up and arrests Banner, having evacuated the military base and much of the surrounding areas, thus ruining Banner's "vengeance".

For the next 30 years, Banner is locked in a mental insitution, until he is finally deemed sane and released back into the world.

Learning that his son Bruce was involved in a Gamma radiation accident, and that a huge hulking green monster has been since often since then, Banner uses deductive reasoning to realize that Bruce is one in the same with the monster, known as "The Hulk".

Later getting his hands on three vicious attack dogs, Banner corners the janitor of the school, Benny, and has his attack dogs rip the poor guy to shreds, stealing his position as janitor in the process.

Using his position as janitor, Banner steals some of Bruce's research, and begins performing horrifying experiments on various animals until finally, he learns how to infuse Gamma radiation into the animals, and proceeds to use it on his own three dogs, turning them into hulking wolves.

Calling and mocking Bruce about his heritage, Banner unleashes the dogs to hunt down and kill Betty Ross, daughter of General Ross and Love Interest of Bruce, though luckily Bruce saves her when he turns into the Hulk.

With the knowledge of Gamma in hand, Banner heads to Bruce's lab, and attempts to recreate the experiment that turned Bruce into the Hulk, and while this fails, it grants Banner the ability to absorb anything he touches into his skin, making him an.....Absorbing Man of some sort (Hehehehe.....hehe).

A security guard walks in on Banner, and, after giddily giving the man exposition to his powers (Mainly for the reader's sake), Banner brutally bests the man to death with his bare hands, turned to metal by touching a steel table.

Later caught by the government and confronted by Betty, Banner reveals that to her the truth of his murder of his own wife and his experiments on Bruce, at which points he breaks down into tears, begging to see Bruce one last time before Bruce is taken by the military forever.

Betty agrees to talk to General Ross about it, and leaves......leading Banner's tearful scowl to turn into a gleeful smile.

Later having his "audience" with a restrained Bruce, Banner reveals this was all part of a plan to get to Bruce, as he now plans to use his powers to absorb the Gamma powers out of Bruce and into himself, after which he will become a GOD and slaughter all those who dare to defy him, who include Bruce, Ross, and....a guard who slighted him earlier in the novel ("Note to self: Kill that foolish guard as soon as god status achieved").

Before Banner can absorb Bruce, Bruce turns into the Hulk and escapes his restraints, leading Banner to shove an electrical cord into his mouth, leading him to absorb the entire military base and most of a nearby city's power, with which he then goes on a rampage throughout the base while dueling Hulk, killing anyone in his way.

Getting into a final scuffle with Hulk, Banmer cheerfully mocks Bruce for not being his "real son", while Hulk is the true spawn of the Banner bloodline, and ultimately, nearly killd Bruce/Hulk by absorbing the Gamma radiation.

Unfortunately for Banner, he doesn't see that Ross has just launched thermonuclear missiles at him, and, between the Gamma and Nuclear energy of the missiles, which he absorbs into himself in an attempt to save his own life, Banner is overwhlemd by the power and explodes, killing the madman and saving the world as Bruce flees into isolation until he can leadn how to truly control the Hulk.

Freudian Excuse?

None. Banner was a Mad Scientist who wanted to develop a super soldier serum, and by the present, just wants to be GOD.

Redeeming features?

The reason his film version doesn't count.

See, when he is confronted by Betty while in custody, Banner rather somberly recalls his murder of his wife in his insane state due to all the stress from trying to cure Bruce, with flashbacks showing us that it was a complete accident while Banner was obvioudly mentally unstable, and he actually stops trying to kill Bruce after stabbing his wife, and he is nearly crying after the stabbing. As he finished his talk with Betty, Banner seems genuinely sad and upset that it lead to his wife's demise.

The NOVEL meanwhile? Seems to go OUT OF ITS WAY to invalidate all of this.

He was nearly insane from failing to cure Bruce and ultimately losing his research in the movie? Here he is shown to simply be in an outrage and never was actually planning to cure Bruce, but rather use him as a test subject.

He stopped his attempted murder of Bruce and was severely upset when he accidentally stabbed his wife in the film? Not here, where he shows nothing but momentary shock at her taking the stabbing before immediately diverting his attention back to Bruce and trying to kill him.

He is obviously in pain while recounting all of this to Betty in the film? LOL, nope, as as soon as Betty leaves, Novel!Banner instsntly stops crying and starts grinning at successfully manipulating her.

He genuinely loves his wife in the movie? HAHAHAHA, YOU WISH, as here his thought process reveals he HATES Edith with a PASSION for ever making him propagate with her to make a "monstrosity" like a baby (This is BEFORE he was majorly aware of Bruce's condition, mind. He just hates babies).

Literally the ONLY possibly genuine redeeming feature he has is, one moment in his whole life, while palying with a young Bruce on Christmas, he actually has FUN from playing with his son and seems to show regret at the fact that he, inadvertently, passed some weird disease onto his boy.

.....which is IMMEDIATELY subverted when he shows disgust and revulsion at his momentary care for his "freak of a son", and then tries to outright eliminate that care by continuing to torture and use Bruce as an experiment.

And by the present? Banner is a complete sadist who treats Bruce as a tool and nothing more than a stepping stone to his godhood, boasting that Bruce isn't even his REAL son. And that Hulk is his true "heir". He never once recalls his wife either except to use her memory to manipulate Betty, the prick.

Banmer in the film is an evil man, but ultimately cared for his wife and son and just went completely batshit from a series of unfortunate events.

Banner in the novel is a scumbag lunatic from the second we see him (He is introduced tormenting a 6 month old Bruce, for Pete's sake) and ultimately cared for no one but himself throughout the entire novel, even deliberately trying to eliminate his ONE redeeming feature as he considered it a "weakness".

Heinousness?

Worst in-story. While the Hulk himself goes on numerous rampages and kills quite a few people (Most of them military soldiers attacking him), Banner drags completely innocent people into various schemes and tried to NUKE his entire military base, and anyone nearby, because his funding for his research was cut.

He also wants to become a god and butcher anyone who ever "stood in his way" and stands against him, so yeah.

Final Verdict?

In all honesty? I'm seeing nothing keeping him from counting. Banner completely subverts all of his film counterpart's redeeming features, his SOLE potential one he himself subverts for being a "weakness", and he is plenty heinous enough.

Methinks a Keep.

edited 30th May '17 8:32:22 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85330: May 30th 2017 at 5:49:28 PM

@Cinder's arc not being over: If a villain lasts a while, like, between films and seasons, we do allow discussion on them. Oberhauser from Specter is a notable example and Star Wars is an exception due to the Sequel Trilogy being a continuous narrative. That, and I personally don't feel I know enough about the villains to judge them.

And for the love of God, Azog.

Is.

Resolved.

Stop bringing him up and clogging up the thread or the mods will start to get involved.

EDIT: [down][down] I apologise, but this has gone on for far too long. I bit my tongue before, but I cannot abide this. The most I will accept is a vote down. Let's not reopen these fresh wounds.

edited 30th May '17 6:07:07 PM by PolarPhantom

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#85331: May 30th 2017 at 5:52:35 PM

RE: Lighty Snake

Here's the link.

Again, Tolkien firmly disagrees with his monsters like Trolls ever showing good. His statement on orcs says at most, Eru could have them as part of his Divine Plan, or maybe could redeem their souls in the afterlife. Thats not showing morally agency, even the maybe says they only have a chance of redemption after their death in the mortal realm.

The default interaction between Orcs and Dwarves is always genociding the other. At the end of the Hobbit, dwarves clean the areas of orcs, this is treated as a normal thing to do. At the end of Lord of the Rings, not one orc is shown mercy unlike the evil men, and Durin the Last is mentioned to have hunted orcs to extinction. Again this is treated as a heroic thing.

Basically orcs aren't treated like rational beings that can be good. The only time in the entire franchise someone even imagines an orc that is not evil, is Frodo's dream in the animated Return of the King movie.

The only time, an orc is ever taken prisoner in the books is Beorn capturing a goblin and warg, even there, they are immediately killed without a second thought after being interrogated. This is treated as a normal reaction and Beorn is otherwise a pacifistic animal lover, yet orcs and wolves do not rate as living beings to him.

The films are even more clear about the innately evil nature of orcs, with Lurtz being bloodthirsty and ungrateful as soon as he is born.

Azog trustingly places his hand on Bolg's shoulders at one point. There's also an interview where they say Azog and Bolg's relationship is part of the father son theme.

Here's one of the quotes "“Fathers & Sons is a big theme in the second film! We will examine in depth the relationships be tween Thorin and his father Thráin… Legolas and Thranduil… and Bolg, who is actually the son of Azog… or I should say Orc Spawn!”"

As orcs go, Azog is as good as a father as he can be.

edited 30th May '17 6:15:43 PM by Monsund

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#85332: May 30th 2017 at 5:52:49 PM

Nothing wrong with people chipping in some last opinions on Azog for those who missed the debate, Polar. Don't threaten to bring in mod action over an issue that breaks no rules whatsoever.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85333: May 30th 2017 at 5:55:46 PM

I posted the text of the letter. "I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good."

At any rate, you're welcome to disagree and add your vote, but I think the discussion is finished as most of us are concerned. And I'm not even going to entertain Azog having a redeeming relationship with Bolg. The two barely interact and Azog treats him as a trusted soldier, but little else onscreen. If they were going for anything else, that never came across whatsoever. Azog never finds out he's dead and never reacts poorly as a result. The films certainly never, ever examined that relationship

edited 30th May '17 5:57:33 PM by Lightysnake

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#85334: May 30th 2017 at 5:58:55 PM

RE: Lightysnake

Tolkien said in that same letter that orcs are naturally bad, Trolls never showed goodness, and that maybe Eru has the creation of evil beings like orcs as part of a complex Batman Gambit or could redeem an orcs soul.

They would be Morgoth’s greatest sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad.

A latter letter, even says orc souls would ultimately go to the prison of Mandos on death.

Again at most, they can possibly be redeemed after their death in the mortal realm but cannot be redeemed in the mortal realm.

If word of the filmmakers says Azog has a good relationship with his son and Warg mount, I am in inclined to believe them. Orcs are even more evil in the films, so by orc standards, Azog is father of the year.

edited 30th May '17 6:48:50 PM by Monsund

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#85335: May 30th 2017 at 5:59:44 PM

[up][up][up][up]The Hobbit actually mentions that there have been instances of dwarves and orcs making alliances; there's a particular enmity between the dwarves of Durin's Folk and the orcs of the Misty Mountains, not a race-wide "kill on sight" directive from either side.

Also, Beorn? A pacifist? Are we sure we're talking about the same Beorn? The guy based on stories of berserkers who could turn into bears? He's pretty much characterized as a good friend to have, but also a bad enemy, and he also is implied to have a specific vendetta with the orcs (his backstory about having been driven from the Misty Mountains by orcs was greatly expanded on in the movies, but Gandalf speculates that it was his origin in the books as well, though he doesn't know for sure).

I think these examples say more about the specific instances involved than they do about orcs as a whole, is what I'm saying.

edited 30th May '17 6:00:20 PM by MasterGhandalf

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85336: May 30th 2017 at 6:00:21 PM

Yeah, know who else go to Mandos upon death? Every elf. That's not a bar to agency. Tolkien said 'naturally' bad, but stopped short of 'irredeemably' bad which is important contextually: A being who has a greater propensity for evil but can ultimately redeem themselves is not a bar to agency.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#85337: May 30th 2017 at 6:00:47 PM

RE: Master Ghandalf

It specifically says wicked Dwarves' make allegiances with bad goblins(orcs). Dwarves can good or evil, Orcs are only ever evil.

Beorn won't kill animals, but he'll kill orcs and Wargs with no mercy. Again, orcs not counted as sapient reasonable beings.

An unrepentant Saruman is captured and the heroes try to save him when Grima tries to kill him. Orcs are specifically noted as not taken prisoner.

RE: Lighty Snake

Regular Elves go to Mandos, Orcs automatically go to the prison part of Mandos according to Tolkien. They are not redeemable if they automatically got to the Hell equivalent with no hope of redemption.

And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the end.

Tolkien's exact words in one of his later letters.

Also he never implied a living orc could be good, he said Naturally bad, at most Eru could have their creation as part of a plan, or maybe their souls could be redeemed. However in later letters, Tolkien established the souls of orcs being irredeemable.

edited 30th May '17 6:14:33 PM by Monsund

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#85339: May 30th 2017 at 6:03:44 PM

The morality of the dwarves in question is kind of irrelevant to the point I was making, honestly. You said that the default reaction of dwarves to orcs and vice versa is genocide; based on textual evidence, that isn't the case. There are dwarves who are willing to stoop to working with orcs, and orcs who are able to lay aside their bloodlust to achieve their goals.

EDIT: I also don't think it proves the point that orcs are soulless that Beorn is willing to kill them; that he won't kill animals but he will kill his enemies doesn't seem that far-fetched. About orcs being captured, I also can't think of a single instance in The Hobbit or Lot R of an orc trying to surrender; they either fight to the death or flee. I can't help but think that's also relevant to the topic at hand.

edited 30th May '17 6:06:44 PM by MasterGhandalf

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85340: May 30th 2017 at 6:06:05 PM

The halls of Mandos are a prison by definition...that's, again, kind of stretching it.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#85341: May 30th 2017 at 6:06:08 PM

RE: Master Ghandalf

Thats only because they're wicked dwarves. Again, Good dwarves are always in conflict with orcs and always seek the extermination of orcs, who always likewise desire the same for good dwarves. See the end of the Hobbit or Durin the last. Both have dwarves casually exterminating orcs to the last with no mercy and this is treated as normal by the cast and the narrative.

The Wicked dwarves aren't even mentioned in the movie, either.

Saruman never surrendered and was 100% unrepentant about his deeds, the heroes still took him prisoner and even tried to save his life. Something never done with orcs who are basically universally agreed to be innately irredeemable in Middle Earth.

Again, orcs aren't treated like free willed creatures, but are instead treated like vermin that can only be harmful.

RE: Lighty Snake

There's a specific prison part of Mandos where Bad Elves like Maeglin(a Traitor who sided with Morgoth) go, unlike the part where the good elves go.

Orcs are automatically sent to the prison part according to Tolkien's letters. Unlike Elves, they have no chance of redemption, thus they are automatically damned to the Hell part of Mandos.

Elves, Dwarves, and Men can fall, but orcs can never rise is firmly established.

edited 30th May '17 6:31:43 PM by Monsund

hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#85342: May 30th 2017 at 6:06:32 PM

Enough, Azog has been resolved. He was agreed to be a Complete Monster, and the writeup will turn into him being acknowledged as one.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#85343: May 30th 2017 at 6:09:27 PM

[up] Thank you, completely agreed.

If you have an opinion, vote down or vote up.

EDIT: I've calmed down a little and I'm sorry for being terse. It's just this whole thing has rather wound me up. God, I'm so British. [down] I suppose you're right. We may have some swing votes. It's just the whole thing was so long I forgot it was only less than a day ago.

EDIT 2: But Monsund is still taking it too far, I'd say.

Anyway, [tup] David Banner, who is as clear a keeper as ever and is as nasty an example of Adaptational Villainy as you can get.

"Note to self: Kill that foolish guard as soon as god status achieved"

I hope this was in the novel, because this line is amazing.

It's the sort of thing I would write.

edited 30th May '17 7:15:45 PM by PolarPhantom

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#85344: May 30th 2017 at 6:21:55 PM

[up][up] I wouldn't say "resolved" from the way the discussion is going it seems like it can go either way. IIRC, a CM needs to have four more votes in their favor to be approved. The way the discussion it sounds like it could go either way, I would personally give it until tomorrow for a definitive conclusion.

I also still haven't seen the EP. Where is Azog's EP at?

hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#85345: May 30th 2017 at 6:24:25 PM

Go to the 3400 box, he is in the posts contained on that box.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#85346: May 30th 2017 at 6:41:27 PM

The A Zog EP didn't even mention that Durin's line seeks to exterminate the orcs as well. Basically its a Guilt-Free Extermination War.

By the standards of Jackson's orcs, Azog is practically a Benevolent Boss by comparison. For reference, Lurtz strangled an orc for no reason, after the orc helped him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85347: May 30th 2017 at 6:42:33 PM

....because Lurtz was just created and had no idea what he was doing at the moment.

Also, you know what benevolent bosses don't do by definition? Throwing their men to be devoured by wolves.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#85348: May 30th 2017 at 6:45:51 PM

RE: Lighty Snake

Nothing indicates Lurtz didn't know what he was doing so much as being an orc meant he was naturally evil.

You Have Failed Me is standard practice for orcs in the novel and especially the film. On several occasions in the Jackson films, Orcs kill subordinates for no reason at all.

The film makers say Azog likes his son and has a Villainous Friendship with the Warg Matriarch, by Peter Jackson orc standards that's as nice as orcs can get. Keep in mind, none of the Pet the Dog or Even Evil Has Standards moments from orcs made it into the films.

edited 30th May '17 6:47:34 PM by Monsund

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#85349: May 30th 2017 at 6:46:43 PM

[tup] Banner

@Cinder: It's called karma. Sheesh, people take Draco in Leather Pants too far sometimes... Besides, that last shot of her in V4 annihilating the projection of a defenseless Ruby should tell you sympathy is out of the question.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013

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