During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Whoever was talking about Bartlet from In The Loop, he doesn't do anything remotely on the heinousness level required of a CM, not to mention that everyone from The Thick Of It / In The Loop qualifies as a Jerkass - at BEST.
Will read the big L&O wall of text shortly and give my judgments.
L&O SVU examples:
- Gitano: hey, a well-written entry about an absolute nutball! Keep.
- The Deathbed Pedophile: either elaborate (because talking about unbaptized babies really doesn't cut it here) or cut.
- The Victim of the Week's Mother and Father: cut them both. The mother is misogyny in the C Ms again; I can't imagine anything the father did was shown on broadcast TV because of Standards and Practices, which would make him Offscreen Villainy.
- Man-Child's Dad: ...while that is rather terrifying, Gitano does set a pretty high standard for monstrous pedophiles. Cut.
- Charlie Baker: remove the note about 'including men with other men' as if that's the most heinous thing about forcing people to rape each other, and the note about being played by Boone (which I assume means the Boone from Lost), but otherwise, keep.
- Mark and Jana Whitlock: They're fucking slimy, but cut.
- Brian Ackerman and Kyle: either elaborate or cut.
- Stefan Tanzic: I sincerely doubt that the Serbian Genocide was put on broadcast TV, so cut for Offscreen Villainy.
- Larry Moore: I want to know how much of this is actually shown before voting.
- Sebastian Ballentine: I ACTUALLY SAW THIS EPISODE OH MY GOD. And he doesn't count at all - heinousness is lacking. Cut.
- Saleh Amir: Not heinous enough, cut.
L&O examples:
- Mark Bruner: Again, I'd like to know how much of this is onscreen. If all we see are rotting bodies here, I'm inclined to cut. If not, I'd say keep.
- Jacob Lowenstein: Remove real-life note but keep.
- Unbulleted Vague Thing: Cut for being an Unbulleted Vague Thing.
- Russian Mob Boss: Keep.
- Hubris: Remove grave-dancing, and make the part about him seducing the jury sound less heinous than killing a six-year-old, but keep.
- Jenny: I'm reeeeaaally unsure about this one. We've had crime shows with children killers before counting as C Ms (Criminal Minds and the kid who fed his brother plane parts), but, having not seen the episode, I would think that Jenny's Freudian Excuse might be underplayed in the entry proper. Also, though poisoning a cat is part of the potential serial killer triad, that and killing one boy does not compare to the Mob Boss. Cut.
- Leon Vorgitch: Firstly, nice name. Secondly, keep.
- Rudy and Betty: I'd like to know how much each one of those people does individually, and if they're both complicit in all the crimes listed. If so, keep.
Law and Order normal series:
Bruner: Sounds like a keeper if enough is onscreen Lowenstein: Keep Vigilante Execution thing: Cut Russian Mob boss: Keep Hubris and Killerz: Cut Vorgitch and Amendariz: Keeper
From Special Victims Unit
Gitano: Keep Deathbed pedo: Cut Manchild: Cut Baker: Keep Whitlocks and Ackerman: Terrible, but Ackermans are a stub and Whitlocks....on the fence because is fucking awful and unique amongst all the sexual crimes Tanzic: We get flashbacks often in Law and Ordrder, so it could have been shown. On the fence, does anyone know? If nothing else, the victims have flashbacks, so the two women could easily have flashed back to being raped by or on Tanzic's orders Moore: Keep Balantine: Cut Saleh: Cut
Tanzic is entirely a Posthumous Character. I'd be okay cutting him, even though I added him.
The Whitlocks are portrayed as basically pathetic scum, and Ackerman Jr. is pretty clearly brainwashed by his dad. Ackerman Sr. might fit though.
edited 6th Feb '13 4:16:17 PM by HamburgerTime
He's essentially the Big Bad of the episode. He brainwashed his son, took the job from the Whitlocks to kill their kid, and hired the guy who actually pulled the trigger. The one thing that might disqualify him? He never gets his hands dirty himself.
- Darla Dimple. And she's like, FIVE! Quite an accomplishment, huh?
Darla Dimple... ?! Really?!
- Complete Monster: All three possible Big Bads. Their Dragons qualify as well, to varying extents.
Does that even work? Considering the "all the villains qualify" thing isn't allowed.
Debbie in Addams Family Values is listed on The Addams Family. I'm not sure Addams Family could have a CM, but either way, she's listed as a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds.
On Buffy the Vampire Slayer, has there been discussion for the examples in the TV Series section?
More on Cold Case: I definitely think Freely and Mulvany should be kept, as these two pretty much set the heinous standard for child abuse in the series. Mulvany drops his daughter off a bridge just to hurt his wife (the daughter is also the youngest intentionally-killed victim on the show, if it's relevant) and while Freely doesn't rape anyone on-camera what we do see is the horrifying extent to which he abuses his authority and emotionally breaks the parents so that they surrender their kids (read: potential victims) to him.
![]()
Well... she's not Played for Laughs, Darla. But there's only so much you can do in a G-rated musical-comedy. Cut.
edited 6th Feb '13 7:25:41 PM by LargoQuagmire
@8185: It's been a while since I've seen Addams Family Values, but I think Debbie wasn't a straight example of a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. She portrays herself as one as she narrates her life story, but it's filled with "oh, and I killed all of my loved ones over minor, quasi-imagined slights." She's still played for laughs, as the Addams Family treats her attempts to commit murder as being no less mundane than a family dinner.
Any comments on the proposed Final Fantasy examples? They are: Cid from Type-0, Galdes and Cu Chaspel from Crystal Chronicles Ring of Fates, and Larkeicus from Crystal Chronicles Echoes of Time.
Here's the examples to go over:
"Cid. He planned to bomb his own capital and acts as a dictator to his own kingdom."
Keep in mind that Cid DOES want to free the world from fal'Cie control. Whether or not he wants to control it himself in his pwn dictator fashion is ambiguous.
"Galdes and especially Cu Chaspel, with the utter glee that he takes in destroying the twins' lives."
Like Cid above, we're again not told what they did but after some surfing of the character pages, Cu Chaspel is The Dragon of Galdes, the Big Bad. He murders the heroes' father in front of them and indirectly is responsible for every bad thing in the game. Which makes Galdes even more monstrous for ordering Cu Chaspel to do all these horrible things (all of which are on screen) Galdes deserves a spot on the CM Final Fantasy page, but we shouldn't count Cu Chaspel out just because he was following orders. He not only takes pure glee in what he does, but he taunts the heroes about it at every opportunity he gets. I'd say he's about even with his boss.
And finally we get to Larkeicus
Here's his entry:
"Larkeicus. He brutally murdered an innocent village down to the children, abducted the only survivor and forced her to produce crystals for his experiments for two millenia, turned his unwilling apprentice into a Baleful Polymorph, duped the hero into doing his dirty work and then tried to kill him/her... plus, he is responsible for the hellish deathtraps that are the Ruins and Tower."
Larkeicus probably fits a darker Well-Intentioned Extremist more than Cid does. While what he does is rather heinous: massacring an entire village including the children for what seems like no reason, it's all to bring the crystal back. Whether or not that was his actual goal is questionable (Sherlotta, the hero's Cool Big Sis points out that he had no reason to do all that.) and may push him into monster status regardless.
@8073: Re Cartoon Network:
- The Boondocks Nominees: Agree with cutting those examples for the work not treating them seriously.
- Squidbillies Nominees: Agree with cut, for same reasons as Boondocks.
- Robot Chicken: Cut, same as Boondocks.
- Superjail: Cut, same as Boondocks.
- Metalocalypse Nominees: Actually, seeing as this show does treat some storylines for drama, I'd be willing to keep examples from this show if they're played seriously.
- Eric von Weichlinghammer: It sounds like he's still played for Black Comedy. It's just that instead of playing the deeds themselves comically, they have the laughs ellicted by having Dethclock of all people, who inadvertently cause mass deaths and destruction all the time, react to him in horror.
- Toki's Father: Fails the heinous standard in the series. Cut.
- The Metal Masked Assassin: I've seen some of the episodes with him and he seems to be played seriously since he's involved in the serious Myth Arc episodes. I'd be open to keeping him if someone provided a rewrite.
- Liz Bane: Depends on how serious she's treated. Be willing to hear arguements for keeping her.
- Alfred Belmer: I have the suspicion he's Played for Laughs. If that suspicion's correct, cut.
- Professor Impossible from The Venture Brothers: Cut. Comparatively he's not more heinous than other villains, it's just his smug personality that makes him more hateable. Even then there was a third season episode where he was driven into a depression over his wife leaving him, which may prove he has some feelings for her.
- The Lich from Adventure Time: Already voted keep.
- Aggregor from Ben 10 Ultimate Alien: Keep. The only villain I think to be sufficiently heinous and with no redeeming qualities.
- Grandfather from Codename Kids Next Door: Though that's a terrible entry, he'd probably be the only villain from the series I'd be alright with keeping since he's the biggest threat, the one treated most seriously and he's the only villain I know that tried to kill his own son. The focus of his entry should be more on zombifying everyone on the planet, even his allies, for no reason and enslaving all those kids in the backstory flashback.
- XANA from Code Lyoko: Cut. XANA is the very definition of a Generic Doomsday Villain. He never speaks (except once maybe) so we never get a hint of his personality. We have no idea what his motives are for committing crimes, and while he tries to devastate the world he's never given a constant end goal: He wants to rule the world! Except when he wants to destroy it! Why? Cause. XANA's there because the plot needs a Big Bad and it decided the supercomputer. Plus, like 32 Footsteps said, he did have one honorable moment where he didn't attack the Lyoko Warriors following a temporary Enemy Mine.
- Courage The Cowardly Dog:
- Katz: Keep.
- The Cruel Veterinarian: Cut. Not heinous enough.
- Mad Dog: Cut. Not heinous enough.
- Eddy's Brother from Ed Edd N Eddy: Keep for the reasons 32 listed.
- Generator Rex:
- Van Kleiss: Keep.
- Hunter Cain: Cut. He got into the Evo hunting business because Providence failed containing the Evo situation, in his eyes, resulting in his wife turning into one. So Cain does seem to have a loved one.
- Quarry: Cut. Not heinous enough.
- Branden Moses: Cut. Fails the heinous standard.
- Scarecrow "The Shapeshifter": Cut. He's no more heinous than the usual villain of the week, he's just more sadistic about it.
- Atrocitus from Green Lantern The Animated Series: Cut. He has a dead loved one.
- Krytus: Having not seen the series, I can't think of a reason to justify cutting him as he seems sufficiently heinous. Tentative keep.
- Dick Hardly from Power Puff Girls: Keep. I've seen his episode. Probably because he's a one shot villain but he's the only villain always treated seriously by the story. The entry does need to specify that the girl copies he's creating are sentient beings so his crimes are more heinous than the entry presents them as. I think having aware little girls falling apart and melted down because of greed is sufficient enough to have Dick count.
- Him: Cut. There are some early episodes where he's surprisingly scary, but Him eventually fell prey to Villain Decay and was treated less seriously from episode to episode.
- The Night Owl from Regular Show: NO! Not even a little! Villains on the show do stuff like that all the time, literally in every episode. Cut.
- The Truckers: Cut. Like I said, villains do stuff like this every episode.
- Machamish from Scaredy Squirrel: Cut. Trying to kill main characters is something nearly every villain does. He fails the heinous standard.
- Scooby Doo: Cut the Snow Ghost and Zen Tuo as they fail the heinous standard. Again, trying to kill main characters is common for villains.
- Fred Jones Sr.: May love his son. Cut.
- V.V. Argost from The Secret Saturdays: Keep, but rewrite.
- Pong Krell from The Clone Wars: Cut. Fails the heinous standard.
- General Modula from Sym Bionic Titan: This one's tricky. Technically there's nothing to dispute his Complete Monster qualifications in the show: he conquers his home planet, had all of the military personnel in one outpost killed (we actually see their corpses), tortures his former best friend the King, casually kills minions that fail him, snaps necks of resistance troops, and sends monsters to attack Earth, including one that would have blown up the entire planet, just to kill one girl who may be a threat. The only time we see him acting like a good guy is in flashbacks, prior to his Face–Heel Turn which was brought about by him being Left for Dead. When he brings this up to the King, the King seems convinced that there was no way Modula could have survived whatever happened. The series got away with showing a lot of material you wouldn't think a cartoon could get away with and Modula was by far the darkest and most heinous character in the series. Here's the gray area: while it's a popular fan theory that Modula is not in full control of his actions (a lot of people, like me, believe he's being controlled by his Nice Hat which he didn't have prior to his supposed death), there is actually no evidence shown onscreen that supports this other than his radical shift in characterization from the one flashback episode he appears in and the show's present. Since the show has been cancelled, it now seems unlikely we'll ever find out what Modula's past was. So, since we disregard fanon, I'll say keep.
- Teen Titans:
- Trigon: Cut. Generic Dooms Day Villain.
- Blackfire: Cut. Fails the heinous standard.
- Slade: Keep. The darkest character on the show, the most murderous and he actually enjoys selling out all life to an Omnicidal Maniac just so he, Slade, can be brought Back from the Dead.
- Helga from Totally Spies: Sounds fairly common. Cut.
edited 6th Feb '13 10:11:00 PM by OccasionalExister
I'd actually say Pong Krell more than meets the heinous standard for the show, weighty as it is. Keep in mind it's revealed he's a traitor, so every single one of his actions were meant to kill the troops under his command. What makes it especially bad is he has them kill one another, literally forcing brothers to kill brothers. That's a special level of twisted and sadistic
Similarly to the Boondocks, given its humorous tone, I wondered about examples from Archer:
- Complete Monster: Franny Delaney. Also an Evil Cripple.
- Roman Calzado, a poacher who hunts humans for sport.
- As of season 3, BARRY. Once he passed that Moral Event Horizon, he just kept on going.
- Mallory is dangerously close as of season 3 as well, albeit as a Heroic Comedic Sociopath.
- Season 3? Try Season 1, where it revealed that she had murdered the cleaning staff for wanting to unionize.
- The mutineers in "Space Race".
I'm not familiar with the episode that Roman appeared in, but of the rest, I would be reluctant to keep any of them, given the degree of Black Comedy used in their presentation (also, Mallory does love Archer, despite being very abusive).
I do think Franny Delaney may be worth keeping, as his crime (selling cancer medication that is actually just sugar pills) is treated as genuinely heinous by the show- in the episode he appears, Archer takes revenge on him and others responsible for producing the pills (Archer had cancer at the time and had taken them, as had a woman he befriended in the hospital)- the episode has humorous shout-outs to various Roaring Rampage of Revenge plots on movies and tv. I am hesitant though, as there are lots of bad things done in the show (including by the protagonists) that are played for laughs.
I could maybe see Barry counting in the future, as he does seem to be becoming an increasingly Xykonish character (i.e. he does things the work treats as evil in a humorous way).
Edit- You
are right.
edited 6th Feb '13 10:15:29 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki....ARCHER?! SERIOUSLY?
Just...cut all except the cancer one...it's a black comedy! everything is played for laughs! I mean...Barry? Really?
Barry falls in love! The very end to his climactic battle is him banging Archer's girlfriend and running off with her
edited 6th Feb '13 10:23:04 PM by Lightysnake
Hunter Cain isn't a cut. He HAD a loved one...who he gunned down for being an Evo. Hell from what it sounded like that was the sole reason, she probably wasn't even an out of control type of Evo. He leads a crusade to kill Evos even the cured ones. And then he tries to kill kids in his last appearance.
edited 7th Feb '13 12:43:25 AM by SuperSaiyaMan
Regarding Bester from Babylon 5, brought up on the other page, no. Genuine affection for his rogue teep lover, his love for her being strong enough to push him into an Enemy Mine arrangement with the B5 crew in their war against the Shadows. He's a Grade A Asshole, yeah, and certainly isn't on the side of the angels (so to speak), but his monsterdom isn't complete.
edited 7th Feb '13 5:05:02 AM by Nohbody
All your safe space are belong to TrumpShould we axe Monster.Bokurano? I already cut Kodama, but I don't know enough about the series to make a call on the others there.

OK, I'll not bother usually with Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, but here y'go:
Now, L&O:
All these examples need the jaywalking removed.
edited 6th Feb '13 1:24:50 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman