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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#71201: Nov 4th 2016 at 8:26:58 AM

[tup] to Raem, Hyperion, Nightmare and Blessard.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#71202: Nov 4th 2016 at 10:27:04 AM

[tup] Raem, Hyperion, Nightmare and Blessard

You know, a thought crossed my mind with all these proposals. Will the main page ever get so bloated we'll have to give general lists their own subpages?

[down] Will we reach a point where we might have TOO MANY C Ms?

edited 4th Nov '16 11:20:37 AM by erazor0707

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#71204: Nov 4th 2016 at 10:44:17 AM

No one for Ouija: Origin of Evil and Battlefield 1?

Edit: Someone wrote this in Battlefield 1

edited 4th Nov '16 10:47:36 AM by Silverblade2

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#71205: Nov 4th 2016 at 11:00:03 AM

[up] That doesn't sound that monstrous at all. Whoever wrote it should come over here and give us more detail about that villain. From what I read now, defninite [tdown].

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#71206: Nov 4th 2016 at 11:02:28 AM

Rico Radec 123 is the one who wrote this, since three days. I'd like to inform him of the rules of this thread.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#71209: Nov 4th 2016 at 11:53:20 AM

I created Fury (MAX), the work from which my proposal tomorrow comes.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#71210: Nov 4th 2016 at 1:21:52 PM

'Yes' to Blessard.

Anywho, yet again another Marvel Animation baddie, this is a villain who was brought up.....two years ago approximately. Now, I know we don't particularly care for re-discussions, however, along with a few details being hand waved in the original EP, only, like, 3 or 4 people voted on this candidate, so this is a case where I think it's fine to reopen discussion with a more detailed effortpost.

Who is he?

"Herr Kleiser", real name unknown, is a high-ranking general of the alien race known as the "Chitauri", and is The Heavy of the Ultimate Avengers duology.

What has he done?

At an unknown time, a Chitauri disgusied himself as a Nazi general, re-dubbing himself "Herr Kleiser", and immediately became one of the more powerful Nazi generals.

In one notable instance, Kleiser single-handedly, and sadistically, massacred an entire squadron of Allied soldiers, gleefully snapping the lone, young, survivor's neck just to torture Captain America, who had arrived to rescue the unit.

Later, a couple of days after Hitler's death, Kleiser keeps his section of Nazis continuing their prime objective: Launching a nuclear missile at Washington D. C. to wipe it off the map. Reasons for why Kleiser attempted this is never given beyond he's a prick.

Captain America thwarts this plot, seemingly killing Kleiser, however the evil Nazi survived, and has spent the last decades preparing the Earth for full-scale destruction.

Now the present, Kleiser has been systematically organizing assaults on the African nation of Wakanda, regularly brutally murdering any citizens who spot his forces, and, when the king of Wakanda, T'Chaka, confronts him, Kleiser impales him numerous times, drawing out and giggling at his pain.

When T'Chaka's son, T'Challa, stumbles upon this scene, Kleiser happily taunts him about his father's weakness before attempting to kill him as well, only being stopped when T'Chaka throws himself and Kleiser over a cliff, resulting in the former's death.

Kleiser, tricking the Avengers into believing he is Black Panther, manages to seemingly kill them, simultaneously sending word to the Chitauri fleet that "Avengers are dead, let's party!"

The Chitauri invasion begins, with cities around the world, from London to Sydney, being assaulted by waves of spider-like drones and blaster fire, destroying blocks upon blocks and claiming countless lives.

As the Chitauri begin herding as much of the population of many of the cities into the center of said cities to hold a mass execution, Kleiser personally leads the assault on Wakanda, ensuring that many innocents die as the Wakandan defenses are slowly broken through.

Kleiser's goal, retrieving a material known as "Vibranium" from Wakanda so as to use it to make himself and the Chitauri army invincible, is put on hold as he happily duels Captain America and Black Panther, taunting both about their loves ones whom he has killed over the years.

Though transforming into his true, monstrous alien form, Kleiser is killed when he is pushed into a vat of liquid Vibranium, which quickly hardens around him.

The Chitauri fleet is repelled by the Avengers, though with heavy loss, and the world is saved! Woo-hoo, yay....

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

None. He is an explicit sadist who is simply a power-hungry lunatic. None of the other Chitauri show even close to his level of cruelty and wickedry. And no, nothing implies that the Chitauri have Blue-and-Orange Morality. Kleiser fully enjoys murder and domination and makes zero attempts at claiming it is anything but him being a monster.

Heinousness?

As The Heavy, he is the one responsible for most of the conflict. Now, we see in one scene that he is in fact NOT the "head" of the Chitauri as a whole, but rather the leader of the Earth-based forces, as he is seen contacting a Chitauri in space that he refers to as "My Lord".

However, seeing as Kleiser is not only the entire reason the Chitauri invasion goes off as well as it does, but also is shown to be happily committing his crimes, some of which seemingly have no relation to his "orders"', Kleiser comes off as I've described him: A high-ranking, power hungry Chitauri who is possessed of a wicked sadism, something no other Chitauri shows.

Overall, Kleiser was a Nazi war criminal who took great pleasure in slaughtering Allied troops in much more gruesome ways than necessary, tried to nuke Washington, D.C., led numerous assaults on Wakanda that resulted in many deaths, including his personal murder of the king, paved the way for the Chitauri to invade, leading to countless amounts of death and destruction and the near-extermination of millions of people, and personally led the war on Wakanda, leading to the killing of numerous Wakandas and near deaths of many more, explicitly including children and babies.

Final Verdict?

Frankly, I think he makes it. Even if not, he deserves a thorough discussion.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71211: Nov 4th 2016 at 1:25:02 PM

I think we already talked about Herr before, and voted him down.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#71212: Nov 4th 2016 at 1:35:37 PM

[up] Erm...I know. I specifically mentioned that he had been brought up approx two years ago, and voted down for lack of heinousness. However, due to the original EP hand waving a few things, and only around 3 or 4 people voting on him last time, I decided to give him a more detailed proposal that shed more light on his character and crimes.

Here's the original EP for those who care.

[down] I knew someone was gonna take it as me insulting you. >_< I really wasn't trying to, though, I just felt like the fact that the What has he done? section was one paragraph long, without going into detail of the amount of death the Chutauri invasion caused specifically, was the main reason I wanted to re-propose him.

It REALLY wasn't a mark against you or anything, I'm just particular in wanting ALL the details thoroughly examined.

edited 4th Nov '16 1:56:07 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#71213: Nov 4th 2016 at 1:41:12 PM

[up] [up]But is there any real harm in discussing him again? Only a few people bothered to vote on him 2 years ago, I think another discussion can be productive, because new people are on the thread and I don’t think the case against him is a slam dunk.

I don't know why people are so adverse to discussing older examples. Yes some characters are done to death on this thread, but others were rejected or accepted when reexamined later. What is the purpose of this thread if we can't go back and examine older examples.

I think part of the purpose of this thread should be examining old rejected or approved examples, we should not ignore that. Sometimes characters get reexamined because there were problems with the effort post or the arguments for ot aginast the character were flawed.

Frankly I didn't buy the arguments Kleiser, I think he counted and I think he counts now.

[up] Edit, sorry if my orginal effort post was flawed . We all have our off days. I am not insulted, but I do like to acknowledge my mistakes, mistakes are good teaching moments.

[down] Fair enough.

edited 4th Nov '16 2:07:24 PM by Overlord

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71214: Nov 4th 2016 at 1:46:51 PM

It's my fault for skipping the first paragraph and only seeing the name of the villain. I'm not against re-evaluations.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#71215: Nov 4th 2016 at 1:50:33 PM

Oh, I remember that guy; I watched the movie several years ago. I guess I can give him a [tup]

I thought he was already on the list, though.

Why so serious?
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#71216: Nov 4th 2016 at 1:54:10 PM

It's been a while since I've seen Ultimate Avengers 2, but I'll throw a [tup] for Kleiser. He's pretty much the only Chitauri to display malicious intent with his actions. Hell, if I recall correctly he still wears his old Nazi uniform in the second film, even though there's no practical reason for it. The guy just loved being a Nazi that much.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#71217: Nov 4th 2016 at 2:05:07 PM

[tup] to Herr Kleisser

Okay with already 8 [tup] and zero [tdown] here is Arthur Blessard's write up

Law & Order: Special Victims Unit

Arthur Blessard, from season 3's "Redemption", is a Serial Killer-Rapist whom by the time he was caught claimed the lives of 21 different women. His MO would involve using his job in the IRS to enter in the women home and once given access would proceed to bind them to their beds where he would then beat, rape, and even bit chunks of flesh off their bodies before strangling them to death. He first started this in 1983 already claiming seven women in New York City before framing a mentally disabled man, Roger Berry, when the cops were closing on to him. With Roger taking the fall, Blessard went to other cities across the country killing even more women as well as evolving his MO from strangling them to slitting their throats. After hearing of Roger's release from prison He returns back to New York and kills more women there, all so he frame Roger once more and watch him return to prison, only for Roger to be proven innocent by the detectives, before finally arresting Blessard.

Before I send this to the drafts I want to point out that the episode Redemption" is before the episode Execution''.

edited 4th Nov '16 2:16:49 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#71218: Nov 4th 2016 at 2:05:56 PM

My draft about Bedlam:

  • Lament of the Lost Moors: Mage Bedlam is the usurper king of Eruin Duela. after breaking a pact of peace, he warred and killed his half-Brother Wulf the White wolf and cursed the battlefield. His secret alter ego Lord Blackmore marries Wulf's widow with the promise of keeping her and Wulf's daughter Sioban safe. He repeatedly wounds and rapes his wife and attempts to kill her by setting fire to the bedroom. He also had an entire clan decimated out of rivalry and keeps their skulls in a chest. Realizing that the young Sioban is the one destined to dethrone him, he tries several times to kill her. When one of his men dares to criticizes him, he forces the guy to eat a magical bud that sprouts in him. Finally he launches his army on his castle with the intentions of killing massacring the inhabitants and when his niece Sioban rejects his offer to marry him, he once again tries to dispose of her.

As usual anyone with better writing skills or familiar with the work is free to make corrections.

edited 4th Nov '16 2:07:38 PM by Silverblade2

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#71219: Nov 4th 2016 at 2:14:14 PM

Well if he loved being a Nazi that much, yeah I'll also throw a [tup] to Herr Kleiser.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#71220: Nov 4th 2016 at 3:03:12 PM

How much of Blessard do we see? L&O is like, the king of Offscreen Villainy.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#71221: Nov 4th 2016 at 3:13:32 PM

@erazor0707: Easy. We'll just keep splitting up the pages. If something's labeled A-M and N-Z, we can split it so it's something like A-F, G-P, Q-Z, or something like that. It'll probably be a decade or so before it gets to a point where we have to make a separate page for all 26 letters.

Hopefully.

edited 4th Nov '16 3:13:42 PM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#71222: Nov 4th 2016 at 3:18:24 PM

[up][up] Well, with the one ep I've seen, we did see the bodies of some of Grafton's victims. I found Blessard's ep online; we see the aftermath of one of his murders; the victim's covered in blood. That's enough for me.
[nja] [tup] Kleiser I think.

edited 4th Nov '16 3:22:55 PM by ACW

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#71223: Nov 4th 2016 at 3:39:28 PM

Kleiser didn't love being a Nazi that much. Fury even noted that he had no real loyalty to the Reich but rather to the Chitari themselves. I assume he kept the form because the film needed a more human face on the villain, and Nazis are always a good evil force. He's a sadist yes, but being a Nazi was more a means to an end for him.

Though while Kleiser is the Human Face of the Chiutari invasion, so to speak, the entire thing is masterminded by the chiutari leaders which remain mostly offscreen which he is still loyal to. I'm going to say [tdown] on account of that. He's the most demonstrably evil person in the films, but his position has been granted to him by other evil creatures which set this whole event and slaughter into motion.

edited 4th Nov '16 3:46:14 PM by DrPsyche

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#71224: Nov 4th 2016 at 4:08:34 PM

[tup] Kleiser

My movie schedule changed, and I should be seeing if anybody from Moonstalker qualifie tonight..

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#71225: Nov 4th 2016 at 4:17:32 PM

[up] [up] While I can understand your position, this isn't the first time that a villain who was only working for the "masterminds" qualified. Burke, James Tyrell, and the Webmaster from Schwarzschild Radius all didn't actively select their crimes or master plans, but they all handily count because of their willingness in carrying out said crimes and/or master plans + their sadism/near predatory cold-bloodedness in carrying them out.

And on the "loyalty" thing.....there is zero indication of how "loyal' he is. He gets two sentences of interaction with the Chitauri leadership, and, though referring to them as " My Lord", that is the extent of his "loyalty". Every other scene with him shows him as leading the Chitauri forces on Earth while cackling like a lunatic at the carnage.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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