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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#70501: Oct 25th 2016 at 7:37:40 PM

[tup]Duvall.

Why so serious?
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#70502: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:01:27 PM

[tup] Remy Duvall.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#70503: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:02:45 PM

[tup] Remy

I wonder if Lou might count?

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#70504: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:08:57 PM

'Yes' to Dies and Duvall. Sounds like quite the scumbag.

@DDD: Cullen Bunn wrote it. He's famous for dozens of Marvel and DC comics, as well as other hrror comics, like Harrow County.

edited 25th Oct '16 10:14:05 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#70506: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:36:43 PM

Just to get catch up:

[tup] to Doucet, Pinkie, Dixon, Duvall, Irae and Cole.

After my last entry, I would like to prove I have some good cinematic taste (grin). So I watched a German film about the Holocaust (Edit: called Naked Among Wolves) recently, it is pretty good.

Though I wonder if the evil acts in the film are divided up into several different Nazis for anyone to stand out.

It was set in Buchenwald, which wasn't a death camp the way Auschwitz was, it was forced labor camp in Germany that tried to work the inmates to death.

There is the Camp commandant who runs the camp, but is keeping the prisoners alive so it he can get a deal with the Americans.

There are two SS officers, Reineboth and Kluttig who are looking for a 3 year old boy who they want to execute. Kluttig wants to kill everyone in the camp to prevent the Allies from learning the turth, but the commandant doesn't allow it, fearing he will be hanged if the Americans find out. Near the end of the war, Kluttig orders the SS troops to mobilize, in order to execute everyone in the camp. but Reineboth countermands the order, ordering the SS to flee, not wanting to be executed as a war criminal after the war. Kluttig seems pretty upset about this, actually pointing a gun at the commandant and ordering him to stay. Reineboth was still an evil SOB, despite this act of pragmatic mercy that likely saved him from being a CM, having prisoners tortured to find out about a potential resistance movement in the camp and having one prisoner violently kill another to spare his own life, just for his own amusement.

There of course random Nazi guards inflicting random cruelties and deaths on the prisoners, the only one who stands out a bit is Mandrill, the camp's torturer who tortured the resistance leader's under Reineboth's orders and in the climax of the film, wants to kill two prisoners he tortured, just because he promised he would do so (he also wanted to kill everyone in his torture bunker, but was too low of the command chain to do that.)

So I am not sure anyone could count in this film, I wonder if the heinous acts are too spread out.

edited 25th Oct '16 8:57:01 PM by Overlord

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#70508: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:55:05 PM

Gonna go against the grain here and vote [tdown] for Doucet. He just feels way too small-time for me to feel comfortable enough voting up. For what it's worth though, Remy Duvall is a very easy [tup], definitely one of the nastiest gangster villains I've seen.

edited 25th Oct '16 8:55:59 PM by FriedWarthog

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#70509: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:55:38 PM

[up][up] Its called Naked Among Wolves.

edited 25th Oct '16 9:20:34 PM by Overlord

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#70510: Oct 25th 2016 at 9:31:12 PM

[up] Looks interesting. I think you might be correct about the crimes being too spread out.

edited 25th Oct '16 9:31:35 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#70511: Oct 25th 2016 at 9:54:51 PM

The final novel in the Legend of Drizzt saga came out today so I'm going to try to get it read in two weeks, but the new Wo W: Legion patch came out today so I'm probably going to be balls deep in that for a while. Any discussion on the final book from me may be later than two weeks, especially since a physical copy isn't available from Amazon yet.

Anyways, in the meantime, here's my effort post on the second of five candidates from my series retrospective.

Who is he?

Akar Kessell is the Big Bad of the first ever released and chronologically fourth Legend of Drizzt novel, The Crystal Shard, and the first of the Icewind Dale Trilogy. A weak-willed and unskilled wizard who ultimately allied with Crenshinibon, the titular Crystal Shard, Akar Kessell would declare himself the Tyrant of Icewind Dale and truly set the standard for the quality of villains that R.A. Salvatore breathed into the Forgotten Realms.

What has he done?

Akar Kessell is first introduced as a greedy wizard serving under the tutelage of Morkai the Red in the Host Tower of the Arcane in Luskan. Considering Morkai to be the closest thing in the world to a father to him, Kessell never the less murders him on the orders of other wizards who promise him a position of power within their group. At first feeling regret for this crime, Kessell quickly puts that out of his mind at the thought of all the power he will soon have, and he then tries to test his skill by fruitlessly throwing a lightning bolt at a nearby cat. Kessell, being quite stupid for a wizard, lets the group of evil sorcerers lead him out into the middle of Icewind Dale where they ditch him in a crevice in order to leave no witnesses to their schemes.

Betrayed and on the brink of death, Kessell miraculously comes across Crenshinibon, the Crystal Shard, which promises him unlimited power in exchange for simply using it and giving it purpose. The Crystal Shard quickly builds a new tower for Kessell who then orders it to gather troops for Kessell's plans for domination. Many goblin, orc, and ogre tribes arrive to serve Kessell. While waiting for him armies to gather, Kessell satisfies his boredom by having the goblinoids, sometimes entire tribes, fight in blood sports and has them waylay caravans to kidnap women to serve as Kessell's mind controlled sex slaves. Soon giant clans begin to flock to Kessell, who then proclaims himself the Tyrant of Icewind Dale and begins their march to war.

During this time, Crenshinibon tries to talk Kessell down from moving at such a fast pace and becomes annoyed at Kessell's idiocy and lack of forethought. The balor, Errtu, shows up in the meantime searching for the Crystal Shard, but allies himself with Kessell since the Crystal Shard still has a pact with him. Kessell's armies soon overrun many of the Ten-Towns of Icewind Dale and slaughter hundreds, if not thousands, before they can escape. Kessell's lust for power soon outgrows Crenshinbon's powers to supply and leads to his downfall. Kessell is tricked by the halfling Regis into thinking some of his soldiers are rebelling against his rule and creates infighting when he orders many of the tribes exterminated. This combined with Crenshinibon overexerting its influence and some clever thinking by our hero Drizzt causes the Crystal Shard to lose influence over the armies and they are routed and destroyed by the rallied people of Icewind Dale. In a last ditch effort to kill Drizzt, Kessell tries to create an avalanche, but Crenshinibon finally loses patience and disrupts the spell causing both the wizard and artifact to be buried below a mountain of snow.

Any mitigating factors?

The only real possible disqualifying factor is whether the influence of Crenshinibon affected Kessell's moral agency. Throughout the novel, Kessell went against the wishes of the Crystal Shard proving that he always had a measure of control over his own actions. His willingness to murder his mentor, who treated like a son, and to put aside any feelings of regret merely for a chance at power proves that Kessell was always an immoral person at heart.

Final Verdict?

Akar Kessell is definitely more deserving of an approval than Matron Malice, but it's really up to the individual if they think moral agency is an issue here. I'd be happy to answer any further questions.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#70512: Oct 25th 2016 at 9:57:00 PM

I was planning on Kessell myself, so I can say yes. Crenshinibon, the Shard, does influence, but the corruption is more that Kessell got his hands on absolute power, and was of ridiculously weak moral character to begin with,

Everything is on his own actions. Yes.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Ekimmak Since: Nov, 2010
#70514: Oct 25th 2016 at 10:45:27 PM

I finished watching the Prisoner Zero series. General Vykar does not have any other redeeming moments in the series.

Although his act of demolishing Arcadia is somewhat diminished due to how planet-sized populations are killed off a lot in this series, he manages to one-up it in the series finale. He turns on the Faculty, destroys an imperium fleet (and all of the men serving him are killed in the process), and attempts to life drain the entire galaxy in his quest for power.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#70516: Oct 25th 2016 at 10:57:01 PM

Have an effortpost handy for Vykar, Ekkimak?

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#70517: Oct 26th 2016 at 1:00:20 AM

New proposal, from The Adventures of Robin Hood.

Who's the candidate?

Sir Guy of Gisbourne, a Norman knight given the barony of Nottingham by Prince John.

What does he do?

After getting his title and lands, Guy proceeds to impose harsh taxation on the Saxon peasantry, leading to them starving.

A landowner refuses to send his men to work in Guy's fields, so he's enslaved.

After Much the Miller's Son kills one of the king's deer because he's starving, he's captured by Guy. He proceeds to tell the knight off and declare that King Richard the Lionheart will one day return and stop the oppression. Guy's about to kill Much when Robin Hood interrupts and asks why Guy's doing this. Guy cites the It Amused Me rule, after which Robin drives him off.

Robin confronts John, Guy and all the other nobles and calls them out on their oppression. They try and slay him, but he escapes. John signs Robin's death warrant, which also declares that anybody who helps him shall be hanged, and Guy promises to have him "dangling within a week."

Guy and his men use the manhunt as an opportunity to oppress Nottingham even further, pillaging and murdering their way through anybody who resists. There's even one Attempted Rape, but Robin kills that particular mook before anything can be done.

Guy and John learn that King Richard the Lionheart has returned, and they decide to have a discredited knight kill him. Maid Marian overhears this and sends word to Richard, but Guy figures her out and has her arrested. During the trial, John orders her executed.

Eventually, Robin, Richard and their combined forces infiltrate the castle during John's coronation ceremony. Robin and Guy get into a duel, which ends with Guy's demise.

Heinousness?

As The Heavy, he sets the story's standard. However, I'm not sure if he's quite bad enough for the baseline.

Mitigating factors?

Nope. He serves John out of a shared hunger for power.

Verdict?

Unsure, but he's definitely worth discussing.

edited 26th Oct '16 1:01:45 AM by DemonDuckofDoom

MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#70518: Oct 26th 2016 at 1:20:07 AM

[up]Slavery, murders, attempted murder, attempted rape...Sir Guy sure sounds awful enough.

[tup]Sir Guy.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#70519: Oct 26th 2016 at 1:25:06 AM

[up] No, Guy didn't do the rape. He enabled the mook who did, though.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#70520: Oct 26th 2016 at 1:33:42 AM

Hmm. I'll give a slight [tup] to Sir Guy of Gisbourne, mainly because of the indirect attempted rape and him using his men to massacre anyone in Nottingham who assisted Robin Hood.

Was gonna get the writeup for Dies Irae up earlier, but stuff got in the way. And since I'm still wide awake, I may as well go ahead and post it now.

Dies Irae from the Song of Dragons trilogy is responsible for nearly driving the Vir Requis into extinction. Shunned by his father for the inability to shift into a dragon, unlike his brother Benedictus, Irae takes out his frustration by raping and possibly impregnating his brother's fiancée, Lacrimosa. Upon finding out that Benedictus will take the throne, he kills his father and declares war on the Vir Requis. As he hunts them, he kidnaps Lacrimosa and Benedictus' daughter, Gloriae, and trains her to hate and kill the Vir Requis as well. When Irae discovers that there are still four Vir Requis left in the world, he sends his armies to hunt them all down, not caring how many innocents are caught in the crossfire. After he's defeated by Benedictus, and Gloriae releases the nightshades, Irae banishes Gloriae from his kingdom. He later takes control of the nightshades and allows them to terrorize the world and suck the souls out of thousands of people. Irae also takes his frustrations out on his own soldiers, going as far as having three hundred of his men beheaded because they failed to kill any Vir Requis. Irae faces Benedictus and Lacrimosa a second time, and he succeeds in killing his brother before escaping and creating an army of mimics. Not content with using dead body parts, Irae builds a camp where he kidnaps thousands of individuals and harvests their body parts while they're still alive, and even hacks off Agnus Dei's hand. Irae sends his army to finish off the remaining Vir Requis once and for all, and during the battle, he kills Lacrimosa even after she confesses that she's pregnant. A racist Evil Overlord driven by his hatred of the Vir Requis, Dies Irae stands out as being one of the worst villains in the franchise.

So it's just slightly over 300 words, but only by three or five words. Shouldn't be much of an issue.

edited 26th Oct '16 1:36:00 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#70522: Oct 26th 2016 at 3:05:36 AM

[tup] Duvall

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Ekimmak Since: Nov, 2010
#70523: Oct 26th 2016 at 3:57:45 AM

I'm not quite sure how to sum up Vykar in an effortpost, partly because he has a really large list of heinous deeds to get through, but also because quite a bit is reliant on knowing the lore of the show.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#70524: Oct 26th 2016 at 4:09:21 AM

[tup]Kessell.

Why so serious?
MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#70525: Oct 26th 2016 at 4:11:28 AM

Demon Duckof Doom: I know. But enabling his mook to do so is no better than if he did himself. So I simply referred his action as "attempted rape".

edited 26th Oct '16 4:11:56 AM by MiraiYuji


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