During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Oy vey. Hurricane Matthew knocked out my power most of Saturday and Sunday (It got COLD!!!), and I come back to an overflowing amount of EPs!!! >_<
Ok, playing catch up.....Late 'Yes' votes to Kalgan, Hitler!Salamander, and the Aquila duo and Marcus Cutter.
Onomatopoeia's a non-Keep it seems, and that's cool. Maybe when (Or IF) the continuation of the story is published, he'll get more heinous crimes (Or maybe a legitimate redeeming feature or two).
@Scraggle: For as....divisive as Kevin Smith's take on Batman during the arcs he wrote, one cannot deny that Onomatopoeia is an extremely cool and efficient baddie. Though Batman does indeed act....less intelligent than normal in those stories, it doesn't change that the gambit Ono pulled by stabbing the Joker was quite a ballsy maneuver (Out-Batman Gambit-ting the guy who invented it???).
Finally (Whew), I've a new candidate, from another Batman related work. Remembered watching this a couple of years back, and decided to watch it again both for the lulz, and to check out the candidate.
What's the work?
Batman: City of Scars is a 2010 Batman indie/fan short film made by Bat in the Sun Productions.
I never planned on proposing a character from a "fan" work, but this is no ordinary fan film, being made for 27,000 dollars in total, having very good acting, and is generally regarded around the web as one of the best fan film productions ever. Combining the over-the-top gadgets and costumes of classic 60s Batman and the darker, grittier feel of later Batman, this film is QUITE unique and intriguing.
I highly recommend it to any Batman fans who don't mind a fan/indie production of the character and story, and it's one of the ONLY fan/indie works that I would recommend of any media.
Who is he?
You get three guesses, the first two don't count. Go ahead. I'm sure it's a VERY hard question to answer.
The Joker (SHOCKER) is the main antagonist of the film, and, not surprisingly, sticks with the "Irredeemable prick" interpretation.
What has he done?
Kicking off the film by breaking out of Arkham Asylum, Joker takes a 23 year old nurse hostage, and, when he gets a securuty guard to lower his weapon, Joker splashes the girl's face with his trademark Joker acid, burning her face, and while she survives, her skin is dissolved into a smile permanently. Joker then shoots the security guard before fleeing the facility.
Harley Quinn helped Joker escape, yet he left her in Arkham while he made his escape, and all the signs that he's emotionally and ohysically abusive to her are there as well.
Next, Joker breaks into a Councilman Johnson's home, brutally murders the man's wife with a knife (Hehe, rhyme), then kidnaps Johnson and his ten-year-old son.
Stealing an ice-cream truck by tying up and stuffing the driver into a freezer, where he...well, freezes to death, the Joker drives to an isolated alley, where he douses Johnson with acid, dissolving his face and imprinting a permanent smile on it while also killing him.
Taunting the now-orphaned boy, the Joker leaves him tied up in the ice cream truck while he heads to a nearby carnival.
Planting a decoy that looks like a child on the carnival's ferris wheel, Joker gets into a scuffle with Batman, who has tracked him down and demands to know ehre the boy is.
Joker sends him after the decoy before fleeing the scene, at which point Batman discovers that the decoy is actually a bomb that will kill the dozens of children and adults on and around the ferris wheel.
Batman manages to just barely shoot the bomb into the air using his grappling hook, saving the innocents, while Joker returns to the ice cream truck to discover that the boy has escaped his bindings and is now holding one of Joker's guns he left lying around.
Joker, using his own "Bang!" gun, begins claiming that the gun the boy is holding is fake as well, while preparing to pull the trigger on his "Bang!" gun again, which will fire an ACTUAL bullet.
As the boy drops his guard, Joker tries to shoot him, at which point Batman knocks the gun out of his hand. The young boy proceeds to shoot the Joker in the head as revenge for his parents' deaths.
Batman spends the final minutes of the film pondering whether or not his "No-killing" rule really means anything, as the boy has just ended the threat the Joker posed in an instant, but only after countless people have died in Joker's wake, including the boy's own parents.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
It's a "Not Killing Joke" version of Joker. What do you think?
Heinousness?
Other Batman baddies appear (Zsasz, Harley Quinn, Scarface), but none of them commit any crimes beyond "Try to kill Batman", so Joker is worst in-story.
Overall, Joker personally murdered 3 people (Councilman Johnson, the man's wife, and an ice cream truck driver), attempted to murder 3 more (Young nurse he splashed with acid, security guard he shot, and the child near the end), and he tried to bomb a carnival and kill dozens of children and adults.
Not the most wicked Joker we've seen, but he meets all the criteria handily.
Final Verdict?
Keeper.
edited 10th Oct '16 10:40:31 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Joker. Though Ravok, there's also Emperor Joker!Joker, who doesn't count.
Hello guys. I'm almost done with Madlax (3 episodes left). My candidate still qualifies so far. The effortpost will likely be ready for tomorrow or Wednesday.
for the Joker.
edited 10th Oct '16 11:09:16 AM by MiraiYuji
Yea to the Joker.
@ Mirai: If it's who I think it is, they're a likely keeper.
- Defoe
- Catherine Monvoisin, AKA La Voisin, is the second in command of the forces responsible for the rise of the undead. Infecting young boys with zombie 'eggs,' La Voisin brings a zombie outbreak to kill countless civilians. When she catches Fear-The-Lord Jones, La Voisin rapes him in a hideous zombie form and releases him to hunt him down for sport, later murdering him. When Titus Defoe and team track her down, she initiates a slaughter at a noble mansion before finally being put down by Defoe.
- Johann Faust, The Big Bad of the series, is responsible for the Great Fire of London and the comet that has led to the rising of the dead, claiming the lives of countless civilians. Murdering Thomas Blood to steal his face and identity, Faust attempts to expand his reach globally, directing the zombie hordes to kill and convert even more civilians, along with many of Defoe's comrades. Finally, he uses the child of one of Defoe's comrades, the pirate 'queen' Tomazine Scarlett, against them, before trying to kill them when attempting an escape.
- The Skin Trade: In this werewolf novella by George RR Martin, we have alpha werewolf Jonathan Harmon. An elderly werewolf whose only son cannot shapeshift, Harmon attempted to awaken his transformation by kidnapping six children and forcing his son to eat their flesh. In reality, Harmon continued this because he enjoyed the hunt and when one police officer got too close, Harmon tore him apart, threatening his partner that it would be his children to die next if he did not cover it up. When the officer's daughter Randi Wade and the kind werewolf Willie Flambeaux get too c lose, Harmon tries to kill both and threatens to return for Randi later. Prideful, ruthless and utterly concerned for all life, werewolf or human alike, Harmon is a perfect example of the worst the lycanthropes have to offer.
- Space Adventure Cobra: As leader of the pirate guild, Lord Salamander is responsible for a great deal of the atrocities they regularly commit across the galaxy, while also hosting violent underground blood sports. Desiring to rule over the galaxy, Salamander turns a peaceful religion into a fanatic death cult, while having 12,000 planets launch statues of their goddess into orbit, unaware that they are rigged weapons that will bombard the worlds until they submit to Salamander's rule. Murdering his followers to avoid sharing power, Salamander is barely stopped by Cobra and spitefully attempts to destroy earth to deny Cobra satisfaction at his victory. His true identity makes things worse, as Salamander is a psychic project for the crippled body of Adolf Hitler, hungering for conquest after 3000 years.
![]()
Trying to bomb a carnival, killing dozens (including children)? Easily passes the heinous standard.
P.S. Lighty, are you still doing the "Traitor General"?
edited 10th Oct '16 1:02:00 PM by ACW
Joker
I already proposed this character but I didn't get enough votes so I try again with a more elaborated effort post.
What's the work?
Habibi is the story of two child slaves Dodola and Zam who have to survive in the fictive Islamic country Wannatolia. The story is put in parallel with Arabic tales and stories from the Bible and the Quran.
Who is He?
The unnamed Sultan is the ruler of city but probably of the in-name-only kind since he does nothing but have sex in the story. He has lots of wives, so many that his harem is split in two: the Palace of Tears for "old" ones and a Gilded Cage the young and pretty ones. Those women can eat, smoke and enjoy luxury as much as they want but they're not allowed to leave.
What does he do?
The Sultan bored by his numerous wives hears about Dodola, a talented underage prostitute who lives in the desert with her adopted brother Zam and sells her body in exchange for food to survive. He then sends his men to seize her. He challenges her to please him for seventy nights in a row. He will grant her freedom if she succeeds but will slice her head off If she fails. For 69 nights, she satisfies him beyond hopes and becomes his favorite receiving her lots of marks of honor. Unfortunately, after the 70th night, the Sultan claims he's bored but instead of killing her, he locks her in a cell for the "occasional fling".
He rapes her in the cell during a visit but doesn't enjoy it. After seven months, he gives another chance to Dodola who now severely suffers from malnutrition: if she turns a jug of water into gold in a time limit of 70 months he will grant her freedom but she'll die if she fails.
When Dodola seaches for a solution in the library, the librarian is executed for allowing a woman there and she's told by an eunuch never to come back or she'll die as well.
She gives a son to the Sultan named Rajab. Since Dodola has a lot of enemies from the jealous wives to the uptight ministers who see her as a dirty prostitute unworthy of a sultan, a conspiracy first attempts to kill her then succeeds in killing her three years old son during his sleep.
How does the Sultan react when his favorite announces that their son died and thus is not in the mood to have sex? He tells her "Let's make another" and rapes her.
Finally, Dodola wins the bet by sabotaging the plumbery and switching with a thirsty Sultan a clay jug full of water with a gold one. He does not take it well and sentences her to death. Oh and when he's at it, he orders a "spring cleaning" of his harem, basically eliminate the "oldest" women (who don't look more than 30). Dodola with a dozen or so other women are bound in sacks filled with rocks and thrown in the lake. Fortunately, Zam who was one of the eunuchs tasked for the execution rescues Dodla but the other women die. The whole thing is treated as a casual procedure and a panel shows skeletons in sacks implying the Sultan already did it ''at least'' once before.
…And this c*nt never shows up again.
Mitigating Factors?
No Freudian excuse since he's a rich bastard who lives in luxury. The closest thing to a Pet the Dog is giving Dodola her own quarters (while his others wives have to share one room), more servants and marks of Honor for being his favorite but other than that he doesn't value her as more than a sextoy.
Heinousness?
Here's the problem. The work is really depressing and basically a 700 pages long Trauma Conga Line for both Dodola and Zam which is why it has mixed reception. To sum briefly, the girl at age of 9 was forced to marry an adult man, became a slave after the brutal murder of her husband and as a child prostitute, she was raped by one her client who got away scot free. Meanwhile, Zam was almost killed as a baby by slave traders, witnessed the aforementioned rape, became an eunuch and was abducted for the Palace of Tears. To be fair, the book has a happy ending so it's not entirely tasteless. I do think the Sultan is the most disgusting character in the story as he occupies a significant portion of the work. I also think the mass murder of the courtesans is the worst atrocity in it.
Verdict
I want to give a firm
but if you estimate the heinous standard in the work too high I'd understand.
edited 10th Oct '16 2:08:33 PM by Silverblade2
Once again, revisions on The Fallen and Attinger's entries:
- Revenge of the Fallen: The Fallen, also known as Megatronus Prime, is this film's Big Bad and the film universe's first Decepticon. Originally one of the 7 members of the Dynasty of Primes, The Fallen betrayed his brothers and attempted to use the Star Harvester on Earth's Sun regardless of the Dynasty's code against taking life, solely because of his Fantastic Racism towards primitive humankind. Eons after his defeat, The Fallen corrupts Megatron, creates the Decepticons, and orders him to find the All Spark, making him responsible for the events of the first film. After he lures Optimus Prime to his death using Sam as bait, The Fallen sank an aircraft carrier, attacked several human cities, and slaughtered a sizable military force while acquiring the Matrix of Leadership to activate the Star Harvester again, fully intending to wipe out the human race. He shows no thought of the Decepticons that serve him either as his primary goal is not to have Decepticons be all-powerful and divine in general, but only really seeks that for himself.
- Age of Extinction: CIA agent Harold Attinger is the creator of "Cemetery Wind," a black-ops group taking it upon itself to wipe out all Transformers upon the planet regardless of faction, all out of nothing more than Attinger's Fantastic Racism. Attinger entered a deal between himself, Lockdown, and Joshua Joyce's Kinetic Solutions Incorporated where Lockdown gives the remains of any Transformer he murders to Joyce for production into man-made Transformers, and Attinger would trade Optimus for the Seed needed to create more man-made Transformers to sell to the US Army. At first, Attinger may come across as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but given that he worked with Lockdown, wanted to create Transformers of his own, would have millions of innocents killed by The Seed, along with his own attempts to kill any humans who could get in his way-such as Tessa Yeager by proxy of his Dragon Savoy and Cade Yeager at his own hand and by proxy Lockdown brutally burning Cade's friend Lucas Flannery to death with a specially-designed bomb—and ordering Savoy to murder witnesses of his presence in Hong Kong, it is clear Attinger is a hypocrite, if not merely a Straw Hypocrite, out to get rich.
In theory, The Fallen sounds like a brilliant Magnificent Bastard. Too bad the movie fudged it up.
edited 10th Oct '16 1:27:34 PM by futuremoviewriter
to the Joker.
I have another DBZ candidate. This one is Babidi's father, Bibidi. I won't bother with an effortpost since he's a fairly minor villain that I can sum up quickly. Bibidi summoned the monster Majin Buu, a creature that goes into and out of hibernation and destroys anything in it's path. Bibidi developed a way to bring Buu out of his hibernation prematurely, and keep him out for however long he wanted. Bibidi used Buu to cause mass destruction throughout the universe, destroying many planets. In a flashback, we see Bibidi having Buu destroy a planet and kill all of the inhabitents. After destroying numerous planets, Bibidi had Buu attack the Supreme Kai's, guardians of the universe. Buu killed the Supreme Kais of the North and West, and absorbed the Supreme Kai of the South. Buu was about to kill the Supreme Kai of the East when the Grand Supreme Kai intervened, only to be absorbed by Buu. Buu became rather innocent and childlike, but Bibidi manipulated him into continuing to destroy planets for him by promising him cake. Bibidi had Buu destroy numerous planets for him, eventually bringing him to Earth. Before Bibidi could release Buu on Earth, he was killed by the Supreme Kai. However, Bibidi had a "son" in the form of his magic clone, Babidi.
Despite his brief appearance, I believe Bibidi can count. He is shown to have summoned a monster and had him destroy numerous planets. We see Bibidi having Buu destroy a planet in a flashback while killing all it's inhabitents, he brought Buu's ball to Earth to have him kill everyone, and he is stated to have done this numerous times with other planets, which establishes a pattern. We also see that he had Buu kill the Supreme Kais. It is said that Bibidi had Buu destroy hundreds of planets, which gives Bibidi a very bad rapsheet. Bibidi's bodycount is up there with Frieza. Because his "son" is really just a clone, and the two are never shown interacting, there is nothing about Babidi's existence that redeems Bibidi. Thoughts?
jjj
On account of the fact he's a Generic Doomsday Villain. He exists to just... blow up planets, because that's what you do if you're a bad guy and the heroes need a reason to oppose you. He also barely appears at all, and what appearances he makes it posthumous.
He's probably a very bad man. Almost assuredly without any redeeming qualities. But he's just a quick Plot Device that's quickly shuffled away.
edited 10th Oct '16 2:28:31 PM by Larkmarn
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.Hasn't Bibidi been brought up a bunch of times before?
to him. Not enough screentime, and he's pretty outclassed.
Also, has anybody reserved the upcoming revival of Samurai Jack? If not, I'd like to. Since it's going to be a lot Darker and Edgier than an already dark and edgy series, I'm sure that at least one character is bound to count.
edited 10th Oct '16 2:33:00 PM by rosewood47

How about we not create unnecessary complication for no reason?