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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#64251: Jul 19th 2016 at 9:00:53 PM

RE: That version of Banner

Going to say "no". This is a version of Banner who is deliberately aping his abusive father, and given what a horror show Brian Banner was, that's a sufficient Freudian Excuse right there.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64252: Jul 19th 2016 at 9:23:00 PM

Y'know what? Ambar's right. [tdown] Banner. My question about the heinous standard of anthologies still stands.

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#64253: Jul 19th 2016 at 9:27:38 PM

EDIT: [tdown] for Banner for Ambar's reasons.

It's been a while, and I know I have one hell of a backlog to get to. Truth be told, I kinda fell out of the Kamen Rider franchise. Not necessarily because the recent series aren't bad (well, except Wizard), but I just got interested with other things such as newer video games, TV series (I binged the living hell out of The Man in the High Castle and Daredevil), and personal developments like getting a job at a startup. Also, I promised posts regarding Baron Quinn from Into the Badlands and Frederick Murray and Tom Lea, both from Roots (2016). The fact I failed to get to any of the guys I promised is no excuse, and I apologize for each and every one of you.

But a promise is a promise, and it's been long enough of a wait to stall on my to do list. So, without further ado, let's get two of these guys out of the way right now. Starting with the most recent baddies on the list.

Who is Frederick Murray, anyway?

Frederick Murray is the son of Mr. Murray, a plantation owner who bought Chicken George’s wife and children from Tom Lea. But whereas Mr. Murray is actually a decent owner who treats his slaves comparatively well and opposes secession, his son is a racist who staunchly supports secession and later becomes a major in the Confederate army. He is essentially the Big Bad of Episode 4, and he will do anything to gain glory in the name of the South.

What does he do?

When a now-free Chicken George returns for his wife and children (4 of them anyway, the other 3 were sold off to a different family), Frederick holds him at gunpoint. While he supposedly listens to his dad to let Chicken George reunite with his family, Frederick plans to re-enslave Chicken George into his family's plantation. For context, North Carolina prior to the Civil War had a law where any freed men and women had to leave the state within 30 days. If the freed slave doesn't by the time 30 days are up, slaveowners had the right to re-enslave him or her. Frederick tries to keep Chicken George out of the loop until one of George's sons overhears his plot.

Even before the Civil War even began, it is clear that he is preparing for war. This ranges from constantly talking about the glory of secession to testing out Southern-made cannons. When a cannon test goes pear-shaped (leading to the death of a few white underlings), Tom (not Tom Lea, Chicken George’s son) notes that the cannon ball used was defective. In response, Frederick accuses Tom of lying all the while not showing any care for those hurt by the busted cannon.

As the war breaks out, he becomes a Major in the Confederate army. He becomes responsible for the rebels’ weapons and explosives, and he takes great pride in leading a fight for slavery. He also seems to be a devoted lover to Nancy Holt. However, it is soon revealed that Nancy is secretly an Abolitionist working as a Union mole. Although Tom is initially reluctant, Tom changes his mind after he is forced to watch his wife Irene get gang-raped by Frederick’s men. As Nancy commences her assignment to assassinate Frederick with Tom and Jerusalem (a minister from Philadelphia turned Union spy), it is revealed Frederick knew the truth all along. Seeing his colleagues as nothing more than bait, however, Frederick sends them to their deaths. When Jerusalem ends up being captured, Nancy asks for mercy for her friend. Frederick tells her to try him, leading to her spilling the truth about her friendship with Jerusalem and their abolitionist backgrounds prior to becoming Union spies. Even after all of this info, he orders his men to slowly lynch Jerusalem anyway when she refuses to smoke out Tom. Despite his father’s desperate pleas to send her to Richmond to be tried for espionage, he brutalizes and lynches Nancy after she steals Frederick’s gun to grant her friend a mercy kill.

After Civil War ends, his father grants George’s family freedom from the plantation. However, Frederick returns, wanting his family to keep George’s family as indentured servants. He taunts to Tom that he will “redeem” Carolina and he declares that blacks will never be equals. When Tom replies that he doesn’t want to be Frederick’s equal, he pulls a gun and tries to kill Tom in front of his own family. George ends up killing Frederick to protect his son.

Any Freudian Excuse, redeeming qualities or other mitigating factors?

Frederick has absolutely no Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities to speak of. Frederick shows no love for his family, and even thinks his father is weak for opposing secession. He will not hesitate to kill anyone close to him for standing in his way nor does he mind sending his men in harm’s way. He is also a vehement racist (even by Southern standards), going as far as trying to keep George’s family enslaved even after the Civil War ends and having his men force Tom watch his wife being gangraped to prove his dominance over blacks.

How does he hold up to the standards of the setting?

The 2016 remake of Roots is, in short, one of the most harrowing, horrifying, and depressing depictions of slavery that I have ever seen. Unlike the original miniseries, there is no attempt to sugarcoat elements of this period nor does it create Out, Damned Spot! moments.

However, in comparison to the Wallers (who at least loved their own family members) or his parents, Frederick is a non-Irish white character who lacks any redeeming qualities. What makes Frederick such a vile character is that he doesn’t fit into Internalized Categorism of the series. Unlike Tom Lea, Frederick doesn’t even have an inferiority complex to excuse the cruelty of his actions. And unlike the other slave owners, his racism and delusions of self-grandeur led to the brutal deaths of two abolitionists, many of his colleagues, and (due to him being responsible for Confederate weapons and explosives in the story) hundreds of thousands of Americans. To say he’s among the worst Roots has to offer would be a massive understatement.

Verdict

I have been right and wrong with my candidates from time to time, so I might want to leave it you. Personally, Frederick does more than enough to qualify.

edited 19th Jul '16 9:39:46 PM by sanfranman91

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#64254: Jul 19th 2016 at 9:36:21 PM

fair point, though it was disturbing as shit. I can see why in another issue we see how Bruce saw his father as a Monster (like a literal monster until Bruce finally gives his mental projection of daddy dearest a piece of his mind.)

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#64255: Jul 19th 2016 at 10:25:44 PM

[tdown]Banner.

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#64259: Jul 19th 2016 at 11:21:37 PM

[tup]Frederick.

edited 19th Jul '16 11:21:55 PM by AustinDR

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64262: Jul 20th 2016 at 12:44:33 AM

[tup] Frederick,
I think this was asked: If Brian is so bad, why was he cut?

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#64263: Jul 20th 2016 at 12:53:46 AM

[tup] Frederick murray

edited 20th Jul '16 12:53:55 AM by Mediawatcher

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#64265: Jul 20th 2016 at 6:24:06 AM

[tup] Frederick Murray.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64266: Jul 20th 2016 at 6:25:43 AM

Ah, here's a possible explanation for why Brian was cut.
Incidentally, I MAY have another Criminal Minds effortpost coming; I'll have to see the ep., but dude seems pretty bad.

edited 20th Jul '16 7:18:18 AM by ACW

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#64267: Jul 20th 2016 at 9:06:47 AM

@ACW

Brian's crimes are given in more detail than that of some, but the "abusive dad" as backstory is pretty common in Marvel. Ask yourself this—is what he does to Bruce really any worse than what Norman Osborn does to Harry?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#64268: Jul 20th 2016 at 9:32:53 AM

I actually kind of lean toward including that version of Bruce.

Not ignoring the Freudian Excuse, but in that version of the character, Bruce's goodness is so repressed that it only exists when he's the Hulk (I think this idea has been used in other elseworlds, right?), and he actively fights against/sabotages that aspect of himself. It also seems kind of comparable to me of CM characters who are good when amnesiac but return to being pure evil when their memories are restored (I've actually questioned the inclusion of these characters in the past).

On the other hand though, just as characters don't qualify who have a Superpowered Evil Side, unless that Evil Side is a separate entity (because otherwise it's an aspect of their personality/they are disqualified by reason of insanity), when the separate Good personality is explicitly an aspect of the individual's personality, then I suppose that means that Banner isn't completely evil.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64269: Jul 20th 2016 at 10:53:33 AM

Should we just swap Monster Fan Works Reformat to the main Fan Works page and be done with it, or are we gonna cut any?

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#64270: Jul 20th 2016 at 11:05:01 AM

'Yes' to Frederick.

[up] There's....quite a few wonkie entries on that page that I wouldn't mind cutting or expanding due to being bare bones. Give me a few minutes and I'll list some of them.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64271: Jul 20th 2016 at 11:11:42 AM

[up] Yeah, I didn't do my tweaking for all the entries on Fan Works...I may just not bother.
Speaking of Fan Works, are we gonna cut any of the MLP or Pokemon ones? FW made a case for cutting ALL of the Pokemon ones.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#64272: Jul 20th 2016 at 11:39:33 AM

I remember that I did do a little list of some MLP Fan Works that I felt should be cut, preferably the POV Series. I don't remember how many pages back it was.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#64273: Jul 20th 2016 at 11:39:35 AM

Okay, here's just the preliminary ones that I have thoughts on.

  • Team Eight, the author's interpretation of Itachi Uchiha seems to fit the bill. Unlike canon, he committed the Uchiha Massacre simply to test himself (as he originally claimed), but in-story his complete Lack of Empathy makes him one of the most deplorable individuals. In particular, when he crosses the Moral Event Horizon even further by killing Kurenai (showing absolutely no remorse or even emotion at having done so), his partner Kisame Hoshigaki - himself a renowned Blood Knight - is freaked out and disturbed by it.

    • This one seems....odd. It only lists two crimes, and it lists him killing one person as his MEH, not whatever "Massacre" he perpetrated. Maybe this Kurenai person was someone special, but without context, it just sounds like he killed a beloved character, and THAT'S what makes him a CM, not massacring people.

  • Bleach fanfic Winter War: Aizen who tortures captured Shinigami to be Hollowfied and merged them with their Zanpakutos so that they serve him as Tortured Monsters, afixes members of the 4th Division with exploding collars, and lets the balance of souls slip which risks letting the worlds be annhialated.

    • Can't understand half of what it's talking about ("Hollowfied"? "Zanpakutos"? ELABORATION REQUIRED), it's a typo or two, and it's kind of bare bones, IMO.

  • The Legend of Spyro Retelling: A New Beginning: Dredd, the commanding Ape in the Tall Plains area. His Establishing Character Moment is trying to get information out of Kane by dropping one of Kane's tribesmen to his death from several thousand feet. He then tells Kane he intends to kill as many of the Atlawian Tribe as he has to in order to get the information he wants, happily adding that he might use some of them as target practice. He does this all for the few, very minute mining deposits they have left that the Ape hadn't already pillaged from them. He only gets worse after his Villainous Breakdown when his Bad Boss tendencies begin to kick in.

    • Needs expansion. All this entry states is how he threatens terrible stuff, commits one murder, and becomes a Bad Boss. He sounds like a keep, I just think it needs more meat to it.

  • The Legend of Zelda: The Sage of Darkness: Davik, Link's uncle and also the title villain. He seems to train Link in the ways of the Hero, only he's really attempting to feed Link hatred and anger in order to speed up Ganon's revival, even supplying him with the White Sword, one of Ganon's artifacts. He's also manipulating Ertegun for his own agenda, and it is also hinted that he also plans on betraying Ganon as part of his agenda as well. He also brutally murdered Link's parents as well as poisoned his own sister. He was no reason whatsoever, aside from possibly trying to get Link to go down the road of hatred even more. And his real plan is to extinguish the Cycle of Eternity, which may result in the destruction of the entire world, for no reason besides hating it for unspecified reasons.

    • Another need of expansion. It spends too much time talking of his manipulation, and only lists a couple of murders, and possibly ending the world. I'd feel more comfortable with this one if the "world destroying" was elaborated on.

  • Super Mario Bros./Sonic the Hedgehog fanfiction Super Mario Bros. Z: As soon as Mecha Sonic came into being (via Metal Sonic absorbing past models into himself), he destroys the Death Egg and forces it to crash-land on Mobius, causing an apocalypse. He then, while hunting down the Chaos Emeralds, also took the opportunity to kill Sonic's friends in extremely brutal ways such as strangling Tails, beating up Amy, beating up Knuckles then filling him up with machine-gun processed lead, and by apparently blowing the heads off of Cream and Cheese. He had wiped out most if not all, of the planet's population and turned almost half of it into a burning wasteland, and was also the reason for Shadow's current personality, because he murdered Rouge and Omega, the only people he could call his friends. As soon as he arrived at the Mushroom Kingdom to recover the Chaos Emeralds, he also killed a Goomba who found a Chaos Emerald simply because he didn't give it to him, even though there was absolutely no way he could have known that was a Chaos Emerald. He then mercilessly beats up Yoshi to gain his chaos emerald (and says that he would have killed Yoshi anyways even if he did comply to his request). He later brutally killed both the Koopa Bros and the Axem Rangers X and destroyed Yoshi's Island by hitting the island with a Sphere of Destruction so violent that it vaporized the entire island.
    "Monster? I'm not a monster, I AM A GOD!"

    • The entry itself is fine, but this isn't some Creepypasta-level stuff, is it? I mean, this sounds pretty brutal for a Sonic/Mario fic.

  • Avatar: The Last Airbender fanfiction The Fall of the Fire Empire:
    • We have an elderly Azula in a world where Ozai succeeded in conquering everyone. She finally hits her Villainous Breakdown with the realization that there is no way she can escape her impending death from old age, so she decides to go out in a blaze of glory, starting a war that will probably kill a good percentage of the world's population, and also set things up so that she'll be remembered as a hero who tried to stop that war.
    • Gian is a ruthless and sociopathic Bounty Hunter, who doesn't care who is in charge of the world order or who his employers are, so long as he's paid for his murderous services. He forces a rather meek young Earthbending slave to help him uncover the rebellion base, and kills her in cold blood simply because he had no further use for her. He's also revealed to be an Earth Kingdom man who essentially exploits his own people for profit, and admits as much to Jiazin without an ounce of guilt about it.

      • Neither of these are elaborated on enough. They both get only one particularly evil crime listed, so yeah, they need expansion or cutting.

edited 20th Jul '16 11:41:22 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#64274: Jul 20th 2016 at 11:45:39 AM

While I have yet to read Fire Empire, I feel compelled to note that I looked at the page recently and saw Azula had an entry for Mercy Kill, having smothered Ozai when he was old and raving. Another character says it's the only merciful act she's ever committed. But if that's secondhand and so long before the main action of the story, I wouldn't definitely consider it a disqualifier.

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#64275: Jul 20th 2016 at 11:50:23 AM

[up][up]No, the Mario/Sonic crossover isn't anywhere close to a Creepypasta.

edited 20th Jul '16 11:50:38 AM by AustinDR


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