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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#64226: Jul 19th 2016 at 7:58:03 AM

[tup] to Hansen.

I'm not sure if we should worry about it counting as a real life example, I mean any movie focusing on a real life monster, unless its a documentary, reguardless of how accurate it is, is going to be a dramatization and thus include some elements of fiction.

I mean I somehow doubt they can know if the scene with the neighbour and the gun was real or not.

edited 19th Jul '16 8:34:48 AM by MGD107

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#64227: Jul 19th 2016 at 8:02:32 AM

[tup]Hansen.

Why so serious?
Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#64228: Jul 19th 2016 at 8:28:11 AM

I understand Beast's concerns, and believe me I'm not trying to find a loophole in the rules to add a RL example. But like MGD 107 said, this isn't a documentary, it's a movie based on a real story, so we're bound to deviate from reality somewhat. A cursory glance at Wikipedia tells me that Nicolas Cage's character doesn't actually exist but is based on a guy who worked on the case, so already we're dealing with fiction there.

Also, we've had characters based on real people before. Amon Goeth is an obvious example, and I remember we discussed the Zodiac killer as well (he was deemed a cut, but for different reasons).

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#64230: Jul 19th 2016 at 11:05:14 AM

[tup] Hansen

I don't mean to be rude, but didn't we discuss Jameson from Final Girl a while ago? I remember we got him approved, but nothing came out of it.

It's Spooky Month!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#64231: Jul 19th 2016 at 11:09:00 AM

[up] Jameson was written up already.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64232: Jul 19th 2016 at 11:30:43 AM

And it will be added Monday, with all the others this week (Beast, I'll do the X-trio if you add them to the Drafts).

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#64233: Jul 19th 2016 at 11:41:31 AM

On King Piccolo - the original King Piccolo was explicitly Made of Evil, being a personification of all the inner darkness Kami shed from himself, and unlike, say, Cell, there's no point that indicates he could choose to be anything else. Piccolo Jr. was able to make choices to do good and change for the better because he was both Piccolo's reincarnation and his spawn (having come from an egg like all of Piccolo's other "children" but containing a large part of Piccolo's spirit inside it). Despite carrying on an incarnation of evil's spirit, he was born into the world like other living beings as opposed to being formed out of darkness like King Piccolo was, making him a much different being than his father was. He's more like a version of Kami who grew up evil than he is Kami's actual evilness split from him.

Basically, King Piccolo's a firm [tdown]. He lacks moral agency, his reincarnation turned good, and everything he did in his arc, later villains did far worse.

edited 19th Jul '16 11:44:20 AM by ANewMan

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#64234: Jul 19th 2016 at 12:02:56 PM

I read about a villain from two movies who sounds like he might be a contender. I'll see the movies either today or tomorrow, but I have two questions I have to ask first (as they relate to the character): 1: If there is no continuity from the first entry in a work to the second, and the villain's origin and rapsheet is different, but the villain is still the same character, how do we handle that? Do we create two entries? 2: Is it disqualifying if a character has "standards" against raping people the "normal way", but has no problem mind controlling them to have sex?

jjj
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64235: Jul 19th 2016 at 12:04:58 PM

Seems like 1) could be a Michael Myers type thing; can't give a firm answer either way without knowing more. As for 2), that's still rape to me.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#64236: Jul 19th 2016 at 12:06:21 PM

[up][up][up]Basically, there's a Catch-22 here. Either you consider him Made of Evil, or you say "his reincarnation not being Made of Evil proves he has moral agency"... in which case you're saying that his reincarnation's actions would count as his own, thus disqualifying him.

edited 19th Jul '16 12:06:51 PM by Larkmarn

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#64238: Jul 19th 2016 at 12:10:10 PM

ACW: I would've added them earlier but there was an edit block.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#64240: Jul 19th 2016 at 12:16:50 PM

Whoops, doublepost

edited 19th Jul '16 12:18:31 PM by Lightysnake

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#64241: Jul 19th 2016 at 12:17:35 PM

I thought we were gonna stop the whataboutisms. If you think you have an honest keeper, post it and let us decide.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#64242: Jul 19th 2016 at 1:18:52 PM

[tup] Hansen

@austindr are you like a fan of don't hug me I'm scared? I swear those videos give me nightmares

edited 19th Jul '16 8:43:12 PM by Mediawatcher

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#64245: Jul 19th 2016 at 4:00:46 PM

@ACW: The heading under the Magic: the Gathering tree in Monster needs to be updated to show to reflect the addition of Ob Nixilis. It still only mentions two characters.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64246: Jul 19th 2016 at 4:08:23 PM

[up] Whoops. Thanks; change requested.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#64247: Jul 19th 2016 at 7:28:41 PM

Just added Bob Wolverton's write-up to the drafts.

Why so serious?
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#64248: Jul 19th 2016 at 7:54:00 PM

There's actually one version of Bruce Banner from a What If Storyline who I'm pretty sure may actually qualify. It's What If Vol 2 #91

The premise is that in this version, Bruce came to admire his father, burying his compassion and gentleness. He becomes a soldier and commits various petty acts. When Rick Jones sneaks onto the site Bruce gets into an argument with him, causing him to get incinerated when the bomb goes off. He emotionally and physically abuses Betty throughout the issue. It gets so bad that when it turns out the hulk persona (The Starman) is a gentle innocent child Betty works to bring it out, so that she can spend time with it. He reassigns Glenn Talbot to Alaska when Talbot points out that there's no proof the hulk thing is the agent of a foreign power. When he learns the truth, he teaches himself how to awaken the starman, before anonymously calling the troops so that they'll pursue the Starman and send in the team of Gamma Busters. Eventually he plants a bomb on a submarine (the claustrophobia he has causes him to hulk out) thereby ensuring that 215 people die. He also plants evidence linking the Starman to a middle eastern country, prompting a war which will involve dropping Gamma Bombs. When Betty finally stands up to him and tells her story to Doctor Samson Bruce blackmails Samson into having Betty committed. Betty is actually happy to be committed

Heinous Standard:

He physically and emotionally abuses both his wife and his kinder alter ego, all of which is shown in sickening detail. He's also willing to cause the deaths of potentially thousands of people just to start a war where he will gain glory. It's at least as bad as Norman Osborne.

I think he qualifies [tup]

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64249: Jul 19th 2016 at 8:09:28 PM

How do we measure the heinous standard of What If, or Genre Anthology series in general, really?

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#64250: Jul 19th 2016 at 8:43:39 PM

[up]that confuses me as well

Yeah I agree with Amber [tdown] banner

edited 20th Jul '16 12:52:58 AM by Mediawatcher


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