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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#61676: Jun 18th 2016 at 2:22:18 PM

I'm going to propose another possible CM from Rosario Vampire:Brightest Darkness. I'm preparing his effortpost.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#61680: Jun 18th 2016 at 2:50:36 PM

[tup] to Mr. Veils and Count Otto von Doom.

There was a discussion of works that people were surprised didn't have a CM a while back. I didn't have anything to add at the time, but Heroes has a surprising lack of monsters. There were some nasty villains on that show, but none of them make that leap from bad to absolute worst.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#61681: Jun 18th 2016 at 2:51:55 PM

I'll note that of the characters in "1602", the only ones I'm totally comfortable with talking about are Otto von Doom and Victor Octavius. The rest of the cast, hero and villain alike, are time-shifted versions of the modern 616 characters (or at least started that way before the Watchers intervened) which means that questions of moral agency and whether they are even separate characters are going to come into play with Osbourne, Captain Fiske, etc. Conversely both Otto and Victor are clearly not their 616 counterparts but are rather their equally nefarious ancestors and can thus be discussed without issue.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#61682: Jun 18th 2016 at 3:05:30 PM

[up] Wouldn't be the first Octavius. Though if this is correct, it's a totally different continuity (I think).
[down] I see.

edited 18th Jun '16 3:32:39 PM by ACW

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#61683: Jun 18th 2016 at 3:28:25 PM

[up]It's not. It was originally the screwed up past of the 616 verse. Then after time got fixed, the Watchers recreated it as the 311 'verse.

EDIT: It's even referred to as 616 in the initial comic.

edited 18th Jun '16 4:33:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#61684: Jun 18th 2016 at 4:35:39 PM

@Clown-face I remember you said you don't like honest from akame ga kill, why is that? Just a random question

[tup] soraya

edited 18th Jun '16 4:36:18 PM by Mediawatcher

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#61685: Jun 18th 2016 at 4:45:06 PM

@Mediawatcher: I don't like Honest because he seemed like that character that was created JUST to give the audience somewhat to detest.

Every scene he's in, it's like he's trying to remind the audience that he's EVIL, to the point that it doesn't even make sense. Most villains want power or something, Honest is just being evil to give the heroes a reason to want to kill him.

However, I'd be able to forgive that if he was good at something besides being a dick, but he's not. He's not all that tough (at least in the anime), he's not really smart or crafty, either. Sure, he's good at manipulating the child emperor, but that's because the emperor is an idiot.

Honestly, I'd bet the writers are more interested in Esdeath as the villain, and Honest is just there to be a Hate Sink.

edited 18th Jun '16 5:11:24 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#61686: Jun 18th 2016 at 5:10:18 PM

[up] a lot of the villains are like that for me, I watched it and that's the impression I got out of most of them, esdeath is the only stand out in that series. Honestly the heroes only look like heroes because the villains are much worse.

How do I link like you guys do it? I don't know how to do it.

edited 18th Jun '16 5:11:35 PM by Mediawatcher

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#61687: Jun 18th 2016 at 5:18:52 PM

I am going to work on a condensed version of Soraya's write up tonight. I assume her actions don't have to be in chronological order in the write up?

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61688: Jun 18th 2016 at 6:11:22 PM

[up][up] Like this, sans all but the second to last spaces: [[ Namespace / Article Title text ]]

edited 18th Jun '16 6:13:21 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#61689: Jun 18th 2016 at 7:09:53 PM

So, I found this on Joffrey's character page:

  • Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas: Played straight. He loves his mother and she appears to be one of the few he will listen to. Unfortunately, she doesn't see anything wrong with many of his actions.

I take it this should be deleted, or edited?

Why so serious?
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#61691: Jun 18th 2016 at 7:25:28 PM

After creating a YMMV page for the Metroid (Manga), I moved Ridley's CM entry from the series-wide YMMV page to there, since it was the one (ambiguously canon) time he got enough characterization to qualify and the entry was under the Anime And Manga section as opposed to Video Games.

In light of this ambiguity, it got me thinking that Nintendo has enough Monsters (16 existing entries not counting those under existing franchise Monster folders) to warrant its own page. May I whip up a sandbox for such?

zcooper95 Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#61692: Jun 18th 2016 at 7:55:38 PM

Ok here is Darin's writeup:

Darin Mac Namara from "Ringmaster) is a greedy ringmaster and is only human in appearance, yet is more monstrous than almost any villain Angel has ever faced. Running a blood sport arena where he kidnaps other demons and forces them to fight to the death in Gladiator fashion, Darin refuses to let any of them go until they've had their 21st kill. Anyone who tries to escape gets incinerated by an electric wrist band they are forced to wear, and anyone who refuses to fight are tortured. After he's kidnapped the protagonist, Angel, our hero holds Darin's brother and partner in crime hostage as a way of forcing him to let them go, stating "he's your brother". Darin, without any hesitation or look of remorse, shoots his brother to death, simply explaining, "Now he's my dead brother" and has Angel tortured afterwards. After Angel refuses Darin's offer to be let free (for his own financial gain), Darin, believing Angel had outlived his usefulness, puts him in a fight against the ruling "champ" (who's at his 21st fight) in hopes of him getting killed. Greedy, ruthless, and even seeing his own brother as a mere tool, Darin proved to be more monstrous than any of his demonic contenders.

edited 18th Jun '16 7:56:57 PM by zcooper95

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#61693: Jun 18th 2016 at 8:09:05 PM

[tup] to Otto Von Doom, Soraya and Mr Veils.

Since I have a bunch of upvotes for Skonk, I did a write up for him:

edited 18th Jun '16 9:34:34 PM by Overlord

zcooper95 Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#61694: Jun 18th 2016 at 8:28:24 PM

Ok it turns out I have another proposition, again from the Buffyverse: Lee Demarco from Angel:

What does he do?

He is the owner of a casino is Los Vegas, who forces on of the main characters Lorne (a demon who can read a person's future if they sing) to o identify those members of his audiences who had prominent futures- such as a young woman who would go on to own a successful chain of restaurants- so that he could use a mystical device of some sort to 'steal' their destinies and sell them to others, their bodies subsequently becoming virtually lifeless 'zombies' capable of doing nothing more than endlessly playing rigged slot machines. Lorne had refused him many times before doing so, only for Lee to shoot an innocent woman in the head, and tell him that that would go on if he kept refusing him, and keeps him under physical abuse if he doesn't feel like going over one of his victims' future.

Any Miltigating Factors:

Well I'm not sure how much one murder does for the heinousness of Buffyverse, though I personally think what he does to his victims are, in many ways, a fate worse than death.

Conclusion:

Lee De Marco is a greedy second rate magician who kidnaps one of the show's heroes, Lorne (an empath demon) and forces him to put on an act as a singer in makeup to identify those members of his audiences who had prominent futures and uses a mystical device of some sort to 'steal' their destinies and sell them to others, their bodies subsequently becoming virtually lifeless 'zombies' capable of doing nothing more than endlessly playing rigged slot machines. Any time Lorne doesn't feel like discussing his wicked plans, he subjects him to physical abuse. It is even revealed that Lorne had refused him many times before, to which Lee responded by shooting an innocent woman to death and declaring that he would continue to do so again if Lorne keeps refusing him.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61695: Jun 18th 2016 at 8:29:41 PM

Unsure on Lee, due to potential heinousness issues.

Last call for votes on Lord Khoura. Also, I may have another proposal from a 1980 film called He Knows You're Alone.

edited 18th Jun '16 8:34:09 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#61697: Jun 18th 2016 at 8:31:12 PM

whats a heinous standard? And how does it work?

I'm going to abstain, I don't think that putting a few victims to a fate worse than death is effectively heinous enough, especially considering the other villains. Even if he has low resources

edited 18th Jun '16 8:36:54 PM by Mediawatcher

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#61698: Jun 18th 2016 at 8:52:47 PM

Going to go no with Lee. With monsters like Angelus, Caleb and Marcus running around, he just doesn't stack up to them.

Why so serious?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#61699: Jun 18th 2016 at 8:57:33 PM

It's also not like putting people in fates worse than death is rare for Angel villains to begin with.

zcooper95 Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#61700: Jun 18th 2016 at 9:06:39 PM

Ok just wanted to make sure. Personally I wasn't very confident in him either but, eh I tried.


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