During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@MGD: There may be one more contender, but I'll have to rewatch the ep. before I effortpost to get all the facts straight.
Anywho, so, if I so wish, can I add a film to Complete Monster Discussion Dates that isn't there yet, and go ahead and reserve it while I'm at it?
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Yeah now that I'm thinking about it I would have to give Darrin an
. Its not like he was in the never to be discussed section compared to the likes of like Ghetsis so no harm no foul.
So, I had watched this film, and I have a candidate in it that I'm somewhat hesitant on, mostly because his master plan boils down to enslaving the souls of an entire town by twisting the wishes that each town member desires. Besides that, he comes from a race of demonic entities that feed on pain and sorrow, though he seems to stand out given that he actively tries to damn more souls through deceit.
I'd like to make a modification to the Complete Monster entry in Thorgal involving Volsung of Nichor. It would read thusly:
Volsung of Nichor is a Dirty Coward introduced and killed in the third album of the series. In The Guardian of the Keys, he is brought back to life by evil lesser deity Nidhogg, who turns him into a perfect doppleganger of Thorgal. The deal is simple - he will seduce another deity who happened to have a soft spot for Thorgal, the titular Guardian, steal her magic belt, and bring it to Nidhogg, who will return him to his real form and grant him new life. What does Volsung do? He steals the belt, returns to Midgard, kills Thorgal, takes his place, and, using the magic powers of the belt, takes over the control of his village, murdering the current chief, rapes the chief's wife Erika, and threatens to smash the head of Thorgal's baby daughter, all to destroy Thorgal's good name and avenge his own death...that he had brought upon himself - Thorgal's only crime was being there when Volsung got himself killed; he didn't move a finger to help him and couldn't have stopped it in any way. Indeed, Volsung is so vile that Thorgal, who is no Blood Knight and only kills when he must, expresses his pleasure at the thought of the villain's impending execution.
- Thorgal: "I'm not normally cruel, but I'll take a certain pleasure from seeing you strung up high on a short rope."
The bits about the chief's wife's name being Erika and Thorgal's quote are taken from the Thorgal album "Guardian of the Keys." I think the fact that Thorgal exceptionally takes even a small amount of pleasure at the thought of Volsung's impending execution demonstrates well what a vile monster the latter is, since Thorgal otherwise always fights and kills reluctantly in order to defend himself and his family and friends, and takes no pleasure in killing his foes.
I was mainly asking for further reference, but I also went ahead and added a film that might (Big "might") have a contender, the film being a psychological thriller titled Don't Breathe.
At first glance, it doesn't seem like there's gonna be any contenders, but some early reviews and the trailers hint that the main antagonist is a bit more depraved than you would first believe. Again, it probably won't have a CM, but I figured since I have no films reserved yet, and it's a film I'm definitely looking forward to, I might as well go ahead and reserve the discussion on it.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Hey everyone. I'm giving a head's up on an effort post I'm going to be making tomorrow on a character from Fallen London. Since the game is a text based browser game which people play solely for the very interesting lore and story, I'm going to have to give everyone a crash course on the background lore in my effort post. Also, because the nature of the character I'm going to effort post is so integral to the greater plot of the game and because the game is essentially ongoing into the foreseeable future, I'm going to make the effort post with absolutely no spoiler tags just to keep my sanity.
edited 17th Jun '16 8:35:29 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.New proposal, from Wizards of the Demon Sword.
Who's the candidate?
Lord Khoura is an Evil Sorcerer who wants to awaken an ancient demon and plunge the world into darkness. For this purpose, he kidnaps Ulric, the keeper of the all-powerful Blade of Aktar, so he can obtain the Blade for himself.
What does he do?
We first see Khoura cutting his arm with the Blade so he can get its magical power. This doesn't work, so he orders his Selena to bring him "untainted blood."
He gets ahold of three virgins, and Selena kills all of them for the sacrifices. It doesn't work. As he is expressing his frustration, he mentions subjecting Ulric to Cold-Blooded Torture that he withstands. His advisor suggests kidnapping the keeper's daughter, Melina, as leverage; he accepts the advice and sends goons out.
The goons succeed, and father and daughter are reunited. ain't that sweet? Khoura enters the room, and demands that one of them reveal how to activate the blade. Both refuse, so Khoura orders Melina to be tortured to death where Ulric can hear, specifically referencing " rip[ping] the skin from her body
Khoura is revealed to personally torture his victims when he comes to do so to Melina. He starts by making Melina watch him burn another girl with a hot dagger. After Melina continues to refuse to give us the information, he threatens to do unbelievable torture to her. She says she'd rather die, and he says that will come later.
After Thane rescues Melina and Ulric, they learn that Khoura killed Damon. After a climactic duel, Khoura is killed with the Blade he sought.
Heinousness?
As the Big Bad, he's the worst character. There is a slaver character who is Played for Laughs, but I'd say that a bunch of murder and torture tops slavery.
Mitigating factors?'
The film is a comedy, but Khoura is a serious character.
There is one strange concern. Khoura is pissed when Selena uses astral projection to find Melina, and calls it "vile," for no bloody reason. It isn't clear if this is a strange form of Even Evil Has Standards or just Khoura being a Control Freak.
Verdict?'
Leaning
, due to a potential moral standard, but I feel he's worth proposing anyways.
edited 17th Jun '16 9:06:26 PM by DemonDuckofDoom
I'm not going to give a confirmed vote on Khoura yet, but I'll say that I don't find that "moral standard" redeeming. It seems less like an Even Evil Has Standards and more like him just being a Control Freak, as you said.
Why so serious?Khoura doesn't really seem like the kind of villain you'd see in a comedy. Is there any understandable context in-universe that might justify Khoura being against astral projection? If there's no explicit immorality or anything else that might justify a standard being set that goes hand-in-hand with astral projection within the film, there's really nothing barring Khoura from counting.
edited 17th Jun '16 9:22:26 PM by Scraggle
I vaguely recall we had a very similar character once upon a time, who did every kind of depraved thing under the sun... but bizarrely and arbitrarily drew the line at Mind Rape for no apparent reason. Can't recall who it was, what they were from, or if they ended up counting though.
There's absolutely no explanation as to why he hates astral projection so much. This movie is odd.
OK, y'know what?
Khoura
At least Mind Rape is harmful. Astral projection isn't in this 'verse.
edited 17th Jun '16 10:04:41 PM by DemonDuckofDoom
I am going to give some late
to Red Jack, Iago and palmer.
to Kolchak Jack The Ripper.
Also
to Darin Mac Namara and Khoura.
I think I have more then enough up votes for Skonk and I will do a write up for him soon. Anyone who hasn't can still vote on him though.
Skonk showed up in the 2003 cartoon as well, but I don't think he counted there.
edited 17th Jun '16 10:38:47 PM by Overlord
to Khoura. His objection against astral projection is quite lame for a guy who committed horrendous torture and mass murder. Looks like a Control Freak mixed with Hypocritical Humor.
edited 18th Jun '16 7:02:37 AM by MovieFan2000
Alright, I've just did a sweep of the Criminal Minds wiki, and I think we've exhausted all current examples. Ones we don't have are either not heinous enough, fall into WIE territory (like Chad Brown
), or have a Freudian Excuse (like Jerry Tidwell
).
I have a rather strange question. How do we evaluate characters if the work is ridiculously long-running? That's because I want to do some CM evaluations for the manga/anime Detective Conan (also known as Case Closed), which had been running for more than 20 years now.
Do I just have to read all the manga and watch all of the 800 episodes of anime? Or is there some way to simplify this process?
I am currently doing an investigation into the Non Serial Movies (because they often feature larger-scale crimes, so a CM is more likely), so are there any problems that would be caused by the work being so long-running? (for instance, the idea that one's crimes would be eclipsed by someone else, this "heinous standard" thing which I never quite understood)
In addition, I also want to ask had there been CM nominations for Case Closed in the past? (I can't use the search function now because I'm in China and I do not have a VPN.)
(pardon my English, I was trying to learn Japanese and my brain is currently stuck in an in-between state of Japanese, Chinese and English, so the grammar might be rather broken)
edited 18th Jun '16 7:18:44 AM by Wuz
I don't recall any previous noms for that work. As for the heinous standard: My personal opinion is to just go by the general heinous standard at first, and then if a current entry is eclipsed in heinousness, cut the entry; otherwise it would be way too much work IMHO. Though doing a bit of research, it might be best to focus on one-shots, as these guys might be tough to out-heinous.
Also, one entry that was kind of dropped after getting two yes votes was Soraya Montenegro
edited 18th Jun '16 7:27:59 AM by ACW

I'll give Darin a
. Looking at the Monster page for the Angel verse he sounds about as bad, if not worse than the ones we have listed.