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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#58851: May 12th 2016 at 6:26:04 PM

As for how clear it is that people could die from Robotnik's plans, in "Country Crisis", when he plans to flood a valley, Sonic tells the inhabitants that they will "all be underwater". In "Flying Fortress", Robotnik notes that he will destroy the port town because it's people are no longer loyal to him. He does not use the word kill, but he was going to destroy the place while the people were there, and common sense dictates that would kill them. In "New Echidna in Town", it is clearly stated that the planet Mobius will be destroyed by the chaos energy, and everyone is freaking out. Robotnik is willing to let it be destroyed saying "If I can't win, than I hope Mobius is destroyed". Words like kill are not used in the show, but it's very obvious what he's doing.

jjj
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#58852: May 12th 2016 at 6:26:40 PM

Popping in for a question before I take my leave.

I noticed there's a few cases where normal villains can become Complete Monsters over time or in spite of a Freudian Excuse (King Boo in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon and Lotso come to mind). So, at what point does the bad outweigh the good so much no amount of petting the dog can remedy them?

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#58853: May 12th 2016 at 6:27:18 PM

[tup] Wong, Cartoon Sonic Underground Robotnik.

Shadow?
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#58854: May 12th 2016 at 6:30:28 PM

[up][up] A single Pet the Dog moment is an instant disqualifier, no matter what the villain has done.

jjj
Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#58855: May 12th 2016 at 6:40:26 PM

edited 12th May '16 6:41:57 PM by Wuz

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#58856: May 12th 2016 at 7:21:30 PM

[tup]Wong, and as long as it's made clear people are being put at risk [tup]Robotnik

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#58858: May 12th 2016 at 7:50:41 PM

[tup] Robotnik, from what I can remember he was played dead seriously at all times.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#58859: May 12th 2016 at 7:54:29 PM

[tup]Robotnik.

Why so serious?
forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#58860: May 12th 2016 at 8:07:35 PM

Hey guys, I got another Jack Reacher CM candidate for you.

Allen Lamaison, the corrupt head of security of New Age Defense Systems, a bleeding-edge weapon manufacturer in Bad Luck and Trouble, also the Big Bad of the story. His sins are as follows:

1. Murdered 4 of Reacher's old army buddies by breaking their legs and throwing them off a helicopter 3000 feet above the ground.

2. Threatened the families of two critical employees: a quality control engineer responsible for building weapon prototypes, and the company's HR director. More specifically, the threat is if either of these employees come to the police or Reacher for help, he will turn over their children to a gang of bikers to get raped.

3. Raped the company's HR director—the exact words are “to seal their understanding.”

4. Sold 650—yes, that's right, six-hundred and fifty—surface-to-air missiles built by New Age to a terrorist, despite knowing too well that those missiles are going to be used in the United States.

5. Came this close to murdering Reacher's two buddies at the climax of the story as well before Reacher throws him off his own helicopter instead.

6. According to a file Reacher's partner found, before the start of the story, Lamaison used to work for LAPD for twenty years, during which he got investigated eighteen times by the Internal Affairs for “excessive force, bribery, corruption, missing dope, missing money.” He survived the charges by using his connections to his equally corrupt LAPD officers—which, during events of the story—he employs to kidnap Reacher's buddies.

So there you have it. No redeeming values, all evilness from top to bottom.

edited 12th May '16 8:08:22 PM by forsetipurge

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#58862: May 12th 2016 at 8:21:35 PM

  • The Untold Story: Wong Chi-hang was the owner of Eight Immortals. Formerly a waiter, Wong gruesomely murders Cheng Lam (the original owner) and his family when he refused to grant Wong $183,000 due to him cheating at mahjong. When Ah Man catches him in the act, Wong savagely kills him, makes barbacue pork buns with his flesh, and serves them to the unsuspecting customers. Fearing that Pearl was going to sell him out to the police, he rapes and murders her in a gruesome fashion, and he attempts to flee from the authorities after hiding crucial evidence. While he was getting his self-inflicted wounds tended to, he takes a nurse as hostage, and threatens to murder her if he wasn't allowed to escape. His only regret was not being meticulous with disposing the evidence.

edited 12th May '16 10:54:24 PM by AustinDR

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#58863: May 12th 2016 at 8:24:08 PM

So someone wanted to discuss Dark Souls 3.

Personally I am not sure on Sulyvahn, the reason is that we really don't know much about his backstory. While on the surface his actions could warrent a qualifier.......we have to consider....

There is also the heinousness standard. Sulyvahn shares a universe with High Lord Wolnir, as well as in earlier games the Fragments of Manus and Manus himself.

What was High Lord Wolnir's heinousness Standard? In life, he conquered the desert kingdoms of Carthus by brute violence, becoming their sole High Lord. When he fell to the Abyss, he began killing clerics and looting their corpses for bracelets that could stave off his demise. When that didn't work, he set up shop in the catacombs in a deliberate attempt to damn as many people as he could to the Abyss to prolong his own existence. He also demonstrates Bad Boss behavior during the fight. He is completely uncaring of the skeletons he summons, as they'll often get killed by his wide attacks rather than by your hand.

Ok this was all offscreen villiany, but Sulyvahn also shares a universe with Nashandra and Manus, who I feel could challenge him in the heinousness standard, through they arguably dont qualify(one is Made of Evil, the other is a GDV with not much character despite his role as Greater-Scope Villain in the series). Nashandra was a fragment of Manus. And we do see the impact of her actions across Drangelic of Nashandra's actions. Nashandra manipulates war between the Giants and the humans of Drangelic under Venderick because Venderick was manipulated into stealing something. It is implied the war had genocidal implications for the Giants with the Giant Lord being one of the last survivors alive of that race until killed by the Chosen Undead. She also brings the Undead Curse to Drangelic in order to cover it in Dark. She arguably dosen't qualify because she is made of evil(the Dark) and possible moral agency issues as she and her behavior was inherently tied to Manus' Darkness(Alsanna and Karla isn't really a "but" example to challenge the moral agency argument imo here because you could make the case her personality was because she was manifestation of her forebearer's fears)

And let's get to Manus. Some of his actions, such as the Knights Program, really are no different than Manus' actions, except he(Sulyvahn) may have had greater resources at his disposal. Manus being unleashed on Oolicile turned the entire populace, as well as Knight Artorias into corrupt and insane monstrosities.

The character who helped unleash Manus onto Oolicile, Kaathe, arguably is more of a Well-Intentioned Extremist.

There is also the fact that he never talks, we never really see his personality or why he has his grudge or what the reasons are. Most of the villains and bosses in the Souls games never really talk or give indication of their motivations. So it's very vague ultimatly IMO what drives the Pontiff.

So overall, very iffy on Sulyvahn, through I am open to other arguments to why he and Aldrich would qualify given their actions.

BTW late [tup] on Gul'Dan and Xavius. I don't think, in regards to Wo W villains, that Sargeras qualifies. He turned evil because he was aware of the Old Gods and the Greater-Scope Villain of the series, the Void Lords, and felt the Legion's destruction of the Universe could stop the spread of the Void.

edited 12th May '16 8:36:06 PM by xie323

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#58864: May 12th 2016 at 10:16:56 PM

New proposal, from Dark Harvest.

Who's the candidate?

Elijah Baker is a Posthumous Character seen only in flashbacks. He's the main character's great-grandfather, and a former factory worker who went into farming during the Great Depression. He was no good at it, until one night where it is rumoured that he made a Deal with the Devil.

What does he do?

As per the deal, he makes blood sacrifices of drifters who enter the town looking for work. It is unclear how many he kills, but it's enough to keep his crops up for a couple years.

When his pregnant wife finds out about his crimes, she tries to flee. He captures her, and makes her into the next sacrifice.

This was to be the final sacrifice, however, as the sheriff and his deputy come to investigate, and stumble upon Elijah's wife's body. Elijah guns down the sheriff, and is in turn gunned down by the deputy.

Heinousness?

This is a little tricky. The main antagonists of the film are the drifters he killed, resurrected as undead Scary Scarecrows who are hunting down The Protagonist and his friends to avenge their own murders. However, he seems to get a higher body count than the scarecrows do, and has much less screentime than them. I think he passes, but I can see why people would disagree.

Mitigating factors?

Nope. He's just a self-centered jackass who's willing to profit from the deaths of innocents, including his own wife.

Verdict?

I'd say he's a [tup].

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#58866: May 12th 2016 at 10:34:38 PM

That's an awfully short effort post......at any rate the killing of his pregnant wife is what pushes him over the edge to me so [tup]Elijah.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#58867: May 12th 2016 at 10:52:06 PM

[up] As I said, he doesn't get much screen time to commit crimes.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#58868: May 13th 2016 at 12:54:58 AM

[tup] Allen Lamaison. I'm a little iffy on Elijah, but I suppose I'll throw in a tentative [tup].

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#58869: May 13th 2016 at 1:01:10 AM

[tup] Lamaison.
My only issue with Untold Story: Are we sure this isn't just exploitative garbage?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#58870: May 13th 2016 at 2:56:20 AM

[tup] to Robotnick, Lamaison and Elijah.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#58871: May 13th 2016 at 3:07:57 AM

[up][up]It has a plot, and it does try to be a crime thriller film. So, no, it's not a film regarding someone torturing another person For the Evulz.

[tup]Lamaison.

edited 13th May '16 3:55:19 AM by AustinDR

MovieFan2000 Since: Jan, 2016
#58872: May 13th 2016 at 3:57:08 AM

[tup] Underground Robotnik. Unsure about Elijah cause his lack of screentime

edited 13th May '16 3:59:25 AM by MovieFan2000

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#58873: May 13th 2016 at 4:03:24 AM

[tup] Lamaison and Elijah.

edited 13th May '16 4:04:00 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#58874: May 13th 2016 at 4:06:41 AM

[tup]Allen and Elijah.

Why so serious?
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss

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