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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56876: Apr 19th 2016 at 7:32:43 AM

Both attempts at improving Shou Tucker's write-up are way too long. This is mine:

  • Shou Tucker, the Sewing-Life Alchemist, is known for his ability to create chimera capable of speech. He's introduced to the Elric brothers an awkward Nice Guy with 4 year old daughter named Nina. With his State Alchemist license soon to expire, Tucker created another Chimera by fusing Nina and her dog Alexander into a miserable Half-Human Hybrid. When the Elric brothers discovered Nina new state, Edward's rage nearly drove him to kill Tucker. It is then revealed that the other speaking Chimera was actually his wife and Nina's mother, whom Tucker created by fusing her to another animal, earning him his State Alchemist status in the first place. Tucker refuses to admit what he did was horrible, going as far as to tell the Elric brothers that they shouldn't have a problem with his actions and that anybody else would have done the same thing For Science!. While only appearing in one chapter, Shou Tucker manages to be one of the most depraved characters in the manga and Brotherhood anime.

edited 19th Apr '16 7:33:34 AM by VeryMelon

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56877: Apr 19th 2016 at 7:47:25 AM

[up] Even better. Please add that one to the Drafts page.
[down] [tup]

edited 19th Apr '16 7:55:27 AM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#56879: Apr 19th 2016 at 8:57:50 AM

With Ctuchik having received a lot of votes, and only Fighteer being against his inclusion, I'll do a write-up later today.

@Fighteer

What makes Ctuchik stand out to me is the following:

1) He's both several thousand years old, and has been running the priesthood himself for the past five hundred or so. He's both involved with far more human sacrifice than most of the younger Grolims, and responsible, at least indirectly, for how those younger Grolims have turned out. Ctuchik is High Priest—in fact he's the only High Priest we know of—and with Torak out of action he's been shaping the priesthood and how it operates for half a millennium.

You're right that being a monster is a part of the entrance exam to be a Grolim, but if I can continue the metaphor, Ctuchik is the one administering the exam. Only Torak himself had more control over how his priesthood turned out, and with Torak unconscious for 500 years Ctuchik, who clearly doesn't give a damn about his master, could have changed it. Instead he keeps things exactly as they are to maintain his own position and fuel his world domination plot.

2) Other Grolims torture as part of religious ceremonies, but Ctuchik is the only one we know has a private torture chamber for his own entertainment.

3) Ctuchik is not loyal to Torak. This means that all the human sacrifice and abuse that's been going on under him is in the name of nothing more than maintaining his own control over the priesthood. It's not about giving Torak what he wants, or honouring his ghost, or trying to raise a new god after he dies, it's about Ctuchik himself. Killing people out of loyalty to a mad god is one thing. Killing people to maintain your personal power within said mad god's cult is another.

edited 19th Apr '16 9:04:50 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#56880: Apr 19th 2016 at 8:57:58 AM

Re Tucker: Very Melon's entry looks good, I'd just recommend adding in that both chimeras are in a constant state of pain to the point where all his wife said post-transformationwas, "I want to die," before starving herself to death.

edited 19th Apr '16 8:58:35 AM by OccasionalExister

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#56882: Apr 19th 2016 at 9:40:17 AM

[up][up] Tweaked the entry a bit to include constant agony. I'm also wondering if the entry should mention of how Tucker serves a reminder of how a human being can be a monster in a world of chimeras and homunculi. On hand, it would highlight just how bad Tucker is but on the other hand, it may be just too excessive.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56883: Apr 19th 2016 at 9:41:58 AM

I deleted that line for being unnecessary and excessive.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#56884: Apr 19th 2016 at 9:46:22 AM

[up]I figure that would be the case, but I like this entry regardless.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56885: Apr 19th 2016 at 9:47:24 AM

I just realized something: If Shou became a State Alchemist due to his cruel experiments...does the State Alchemy organization (or whoever the hell gives out the licenses) not have any standards?

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#56886: Apr 19th 2016 at 9:51:11 AM

[up] My impression from watching the show was that Shou Tucker never told them how he made his Chimeras and he was determined to keep it a secret from everyone. In addition, if you know anything about Full-Metal Alchemist, that is the least of the organization's worries. There are darker secrets and tales that the State has, such as the criminals of Central Prison and the Ishval War of Extermination.

edited 19th Apr '16 9:55:49 AM by Shadao

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56887: Apr 19th 2016 at 9:57:44 AM

[up] Actually, I DON'T know too much about it.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#56888: Apr 19th 2016 at 10:19:01 AM

  • The Belgariad: Ctuchik is High Priest of the Grolims, and chief disciple of Torak, ruling Cthol Murgos in Torak's stead after the god was left comatose. Completely uninterested in awakening Torak, Ctuchik nevertheless keeps Grolim rituals of human sacrifice going for five hundred years, sacrificing untold thousands of slaves to a god he does not even worship in order to cement his control over the priesthood. Pursuing his own agenda, Ctuchik aims to Take Over the World in order to satiate his lust for power, and maintains a private torture chamber for his own amusement. Everything that his Arch-Enemy Belgarath is not, Ctuchik is finally destroyed when he violates the universe's taboo against trying to unmake things, and is obliterated for his crime.

How's that look?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56889: Apr 19th 2016 at 10:28:40 AM

So, according to the universe, killing people is okay, just not destroying objects??? Also, Megatronus?

edited 19th Apr '16 11:19:39 AM by ACW

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#56890: Apr 19th 2016 at 10:37:12 AM

[up]Unmaking anything, man or object, alive or dead, is not okay. When you kill somebody, all you've done is change them from alive to dead. They're still there. When you unmake something, you try to remove it from existence. Since the universe's whole purpose is bringing things into existence, you trying to unmake things flies in the face of the purpose of the universe, and the universe unmakes you instead.

Setting something on fire, or blowing it up, or what have you? That's acceptable in the eyes of the universe. Commanding it to "be not" as Ctuchik does at the end? Not acceptable.

edited 19th Apr '16 10:40:06 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56891: Apr 19th 2016 at 11:01:56 AM

[up] Ah, got it. So, like, the difference in, say D&D besides merely killing someone and disintegrating them? Was Ctuchik not aware of this, or did he just have the Villain Ball?

edited 19th Apr '16 11:02:18 AM by ACW

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#56892: Apr 19th 2016 at 11:08:03 AM

[up]It goes beyond that. It's the difference between killing someone and erasing all traces of their existence from the universe. When you unmake something, you don't disintegrate it, or atomize it, or anything of the sort. You take the entirety of the substance that composes it and will it out of existence. There's not a trace left of it anywhere, at any level, not even the subatomic one—and if the thing you're doing it to was alive, that includes erasing the mind, soul, everything.

Ctuchik knew that it was a taboo that can never be violated. However, when he saw Garion reaching for the Orb, he saw all his plans coming down around his ears. The moment Garion touched the Orb he'd be effectively invincible, and he'd awaken Torak in the process. Ctuchik has a complete Freak Out, and in his moment of panic, commands the Orb to "be not" in order to stop Garion from getting his hands on it (the Orb is physically indestructible, more or less, so just trying to blow it up would be pointless).

He regrets it the moment it's out of his mouth, but it is too late. The universe turns Ctuchik's curse back on himself and erases every aspect of him from existence, right down to the smallest skin cell and sliver of his soul.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#56893: Apr 19th 2016 at 11:11:46 AM

It's not a moral taboo; it's a part of the fundamental rules of the Universe. Attempting to violate a law of physics doesn't make one irredeemable. Even if it did, his immediate regret is a disqualifying factor.

edited 19th Apr '16 11:13:09 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56894: Apr 19th 2016 at 11:17:19 AM

[up][up] Got it.
[up] I think the regret was probably more of an Oh, Crap!.

edited 19th Apr '16 11:17:40 AM by ACW

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#56895: Apr 19th 2016 at 11:23:44 AM

[up][up]While your argument about it being a law of physics rather than morals has some merit, Ctuchik doesn't regret what he did out of remorse. He regrets it because he's about to be obliterated. It's not different than any other criminal insisting "I didn't mean it" to get out of being punished.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#56896: Apr 19th 2016 at 12:44:52 PM

Star Fox Zero comes out this friday. Does it mean that discussions about Addross might start on 29 April?

edited 19th Apr '16 12:45:20 PM by Silverblade2

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56897: Apr 19th 2016 at 12:57:15 PM

[up] Add a week. The one-week rule is only for episodic TV shows (though, personally, I'd not mind making it one week for everything, but that's just me).

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#56898: Apr 19th 2016 at 2:16:58 PM

Okay, I'm back and after playing some catch-up, here's what I've got:

[tup] to G1 Unicron, Stagger Lee (that sounds like a lousy song), Ctuchik (offscreen crimes didn't stop Frank Fontaine or Father Comstock from qualifying; if the effects are visible, it counts), and Ian Wright/Tate (G-Editor used both in his effort post).

[tdown] Milton Orestes, dWARf!/Fleshmaster.

Moderately opposed to axing Sideways, but I won't raise a fuss about him. Anyway, the "continuity" between Armada/Energon and Cybertron is... iffy. If Optimus Prime, Megatron, and Starscream weren't voiced by the same actors and they hadn't called the black hole "the Unicron Singularity", only Word of God would connect them at all.

Keep Shou Tucker. The man destroyed his own family in a particularly horrific fashion (that poor, poor kid... I feel like Scar did the right thing when he put the chimera out of its misery) so he could get and keep a job that never deserved to have in the first place, then had the unmitigated gall to say that anyone would have done the same. Keep the bastard.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56899: Apr 19th 2016 at 2:26:23 PM

[up] Actually, "Stagger Lee" is a pretty good song, if you're into darker music.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#56900: Apr 19th 2016 at 3:43:31 PM

So by my count, we have a unanimous 13 [tup] for G1!Unicron. I'm going to do a draft for him now, but it's mostly going to cover his actions from the movie. While nothing from the show disqualifies him, Unicron doesn't do anything particularly noteworthy in the episodes he appears in.

  • Unicron is an ancient planet-eating Transformer that was created by a mad scientist called Primacron. Primacron created Unicron to help him take over the universe, but he rebelled and destroyed Primacron's lab. Unicron travelled through space and devoured many inhabited worlds, including the planet of Lithone. After learning of Optimus Prime's death and his passing of the Matrix of Leadership, Unicron tracked down Megatron and tasked him to destroy it, as it was the only thing that could stand in his way. Torturing Megatron into accepting his deal, Unicron reformatted him into Galvatron and made him more susceptible to his psychic assaults. Galvatron, tired of being Unicron's pawn, tried to use the Matrix to turn Unicron into his slave, but it had no effect in his hands. In retaliation, Unicron started destroing Cybertron and attacked both Autobot and Decepticon alike. Unicron was eventually defeated by a Matrix-wielding Rodimus and only his head remained to orbit Cybertron, a testament to the Transformer that made even the mighty Megatron beg for mercy.


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