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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#56851: Apr 18th 2016 at 8:00:10 PM

[up] same here man, I never got the hate that he got, I think it's because he did it to his family but even then envy and the gold toothed Doctor did much worse than him and are far more vile and somehow tucker still counts. I don't like shou either, but I think calling him a cm is kind of pushing it, he's a hate sink and a scrappy, but I wouldn't call him a monster. I'm changing my vote to [tdown], many villains do similar things. I despise those two way more than tucker, even if he did it to his family.

I don't know who ctuchik is, but based on what I read on the effort post it's a [tup]

edited 18th Apr '16 8:13:18 PM by Mediawatcher

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#56852: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:00:25 PM

Alright so far with 6 [tup] and 1 unsure here is Ian Wright's write-up.

Hawaii Five-0: While Ian Wright of season 4 was introduced in the episode "Akanahe" as a slacker who Steve and Grover must apprehend for not paying his parking tickets it is soon revealed he is wanted for much more heinous crimes. In truth he is a sociopathic hacker known for hacking into highly secured areas in America, steals their security codes and sells them to those who could cause deaths in the thousand while he makes a quick buck. By the time they track him down in the airport to arrest him, he uses his hacking skills to take control of an airplane containing 300+ people hostage and more than willing to plummet them to their deaths unless they let him go. When they do let him go, he still does it regardless, but fortunately the two and rest of the task force were just in time to prevent that from happening. He later appears in the season 4 finale "O ka PiliʻOhana ka ʻOi" where he shoots an old man just so he could stay in his home. He also kidnaps Grover's daughter so could force Grover to steal 100 million dollars, and throughout the episode constantly taunts him about the his daughter's status causing Grover more emotional stress. He then reveals that he would have kill her regardless if Grover had gotten the 100 million dollars. His actions manage to disgust Wo Fat who shoots him dead the moment he saw him.

edited 19th Apr '16 1:36:45 AM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#56853: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:01:47 PM

Dr. Goldtooth is also a CM and Envy, while incredibly vile, couldn't qualify in the manga due to the nature of the Homunculi, as opposed to the 2003 anime, where his nature is changed and his Daddy Issues don't begin to justify or adequately explain his many crimes.

Cutting Shou Tucker, a character who's been on the trope for years now, sends the message that there cannot be different levels of Monsters in a work - that a normal guy whose crimes go beyond the pail within his own secluded scale and resources has to be judged in comparison to freaking supervillains.

I am happy to say, though, that the current tally is:

[tup] Shou Tucker: Me, Lord Deluxe, Demon Duckof Doom, Ambar Sonof Deshar, Hamburger Time, G-Editor, Lightysnake, Very Melon, Awesomekid 42, Ravok, ACW, Shadao, Overlord, Irene, and username2527

[tdown] Shou Tucker: Media Watcher, Tobias Drake, doineedaname, Yami Vizzini X, and Fried Warthog

There's literally 10 times more votes in favor of keeping him.

edited 18th Apr '16 9:13:08 PM by ANewMan

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#56855: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:19:32 PM

Can we please drop Tucker? The lead is clear and I for one am much more interested in new proposals.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#56856: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:22:29 PM

Oh my god! Just put Tucker in the Never to be discussed again post so we could drop this discussion and move on to other important things.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#56857: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:27:58 PM

Geez, didn't realize this Shou Tucker debate was becoming a Berserk Button issue. Netherthless, I agree. It's 5 or 6 to 15 - Tucker is a keeper according to majority vote.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#56858: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:38:09 PM

If I knew bringing him back up would have pissed everyone off, I never would have proposed removing Tucker

To make up for it, I DO have a new character to propose... but I'll do so tomorrow. I'm really tired and my effortpost may suffer because of it.

edited 18th Apr '16 9:38:20 PM by FriedWarthog

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#56859: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:39:45 PM

[up] Wasn't it username2527 who brought Tucker up to start with?

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#56860: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:42:34 PM

Well I fanned the flames by putting in a late vote that caused the discussion to come back to life.

edited 18th Apr '16 9:42:52 PM by FriedWarthog

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#56861: Apr 18th 2016 at 9:50:33 PM

I still think that Shou Tucker's entry should be rewritten to better reflect his uniqueness among other CMs, but I guess that's off the table if people are considering this debate a Berserk Button. A pity if that is case since I found lots of issues with the entry.

edited 18th Apr '16 10:16:30 PM by Shadao

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#56862: Apr 18th 2016 at 10:07:52 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah I did. I was skeptical of Tucker at first since he just came across as an MEH crosser by his write-up but really thinking about his actions in context they are very horrible. If nothing else, he's a disturbingly realistic portrayal of a CM.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#56863: Apr 18th 2016 at 11:15:50 PM

While I am against cutting Shou Tucker I am not above re writing his entry to give him some more uniqueness amongst others. It is the least I can do.

edited 18th Apr '16 11:18:28 PM by G-Editor

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Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#56864: Apr 18th 2016 at 11:58:33 PM

Indeed. Well I might try to edit some of it to get an idea of a draft. It's my first attempt and thus it's very, very rough:

Shou Tucker, known as the Sew-Life Alchemist, was the father of his four-year-old daughter Nina and famous for creating a Chimera capable of human speech (though that chimera's only words were "I want to die" and it shortly died of self-imposed starvation). When the Elric brothers arrived at his estate, Tucker appears to be a shy but reasonable man whose only fault seems to be just too focus on his works of bio-alchemy and chimera research which have not paid off in two years. Knowing that his State Alchemist status and privileges are at risked of being revoked due to failing to come up with any meaningful alchemic breakthrough and facing the possibility of going to poverty, the desperate Shou Tucker created another talking Chimera... by combining Nina and her dog Alexander into a miserable Half-Human Hybrid, much to horror of the Elric brothers when they found out. It was later revealed that his wife and Nina's mother, who Tucker said supposedly left him, was actually transformed by Tucker to create his first talking Chimera that got him his State Alchemist status in the first place. The fate of Nina brought Edward into such a fury that he nearly killed Tucker and it even came close to evoking Al's rage. While they did not go through with it, Tucker's actions left a stain on the Elric brothers' memories for the rest of their lives. Making Tucker even more abhorrent is his complete refusal to own up to what he did. He acts as though the Elric brothers shouldn't have a problem with his actions, assumes that anybody else would have done the same thing, and when thrown under house arrest, spends all of his time whining about how "nobody understands" that he did it For Science! till Scar came to finish him off for good. In short, despite appearing in one chapter, Shou Tucker manages to be one of the most repulsive and terrifying characters that has ever appeared in series, his story serving as a cautionary reminder of how even a normal human being could become a monster when given the right circumstances. —-

Any thoughts? I think I want to cut it down a bit as well as fix some grammar issues.

edited 19th Apr '16 12:04:31 AM by Shadao

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#56865: Apr 19th 2016 at 12:08:43 AM

I kind of like Shadao. it is kind of what I was thinking. Hey is it cool if you let make some tweaks on that rough draft ?

edited 19th Apr '16 12:12:12 AM by G-Editor

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Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#56866: Apr 19th 2016 at 12:10:36 AM

Of course. I'm not exactly a grammar type person and I still think it could a lot more professional work. I'll be happy to let you edit it. smile

edited 19th Apr '16 12:10:51 AM by Shadao

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56867: Apr 19th 2016 at 1:08:58 AM

[tup] Ian (please add to the Drafts page).
That Shou rewrite is a bit lengthy.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#56868: Apr 19th 2016 at 1:22:43 AM

[up] Which is why I considered cutting it down somehow. The first draft was heavily detailed in order to cover most bases of what Tucker did exactly.

edited 19th Apr '16 1:24:11 AM by Shadao

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#56869: Apr 19th 2016 at 1:35:39 AM

Alright well here it goes?

Shou Tucker while only appearing in one chapter, manages to be one of the most depraved characters that has ever appeared in the series, and while the 2003 Anime version was given enough sympathetic qualities to avoid this tropes, the Original manga and Brotherhood version was a completely unsympathetic and irredeemable bastard. Known as the Sewing-Life Alchemist, he is known for his works of chimera creation, even creating a Chimera capable of human speech. He is also a single father to his four-year-old daughter Nina and is introduced to the Elric brothers an awkward, but over all a Nice Guy. However his status as a State Alchemist would soon expire and Shou Tucker, not want to loose his status, created another talking Chimera by fusing Nina and her dog Alexander into a miserable Half-Human Hybrid. When the Elric brothers found out what he had just done Edward went to such a fury that he nearly killed Tucker and Al's rage was close to being evoked. It is then revealed that the Chimera capable of human speech was actually his wife and Nina's mother, whom Tucker created fusing her to another animal, which got him his State Alchemist status in the first place. Making thing worse, Tucker refuses to admit what he did was horrible, going as far as to tell the Elric brothers that they shouldn't have a problem with his actions and that anybody else would have done the same thing For Science!. While Scar kills him in the same chapter he was introduced, Tucker's actions would forever stain the Elric brothers' memories. Overall, Shou Tucker was a cautious reminder that even in a world that contains the likes of chimeras and homunculi, a normal human being could still be a worse monster when given the right circumstances.

Hope this is better?

[down][down] Thank that really means a lot and I've just made those edit you liked.

edited 19th Apr '16 2:24:52 AM by G-Editor

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Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#56870: Apr 19th 2016 at 1:54:21 AM

This example is listed on the work page for the classic novel Crime and Punishment, but not the Literature page.

  • Complete Monster: Arkady Svidrigailov. This guy began with raping and killing a 13-year old girl and didn't get any better. For the Evulz he had Driven to Suicide a faithful servant, killed his caring wife, molested and possibly tried to rape Dunya, and God knows what other atrocities he committed. A crazy, sociopathic nutjob who truly beleives that Evil Feels Good, Svidrigailov could be easily considered the most inhumane and repulsive character of the novel.

Knowing nothing else about the novel, sounds like we might have a qualifier.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#56871: Apr 19th 2016 at 2:12:00 AM

[up][up] Not bad. Not bad at all. While I would prefer to start off with his name and do a little tweaks in grammar, it's far better than what I've wrote and it certainly captures what makes Tucker unique among CMs. I give this entry rewrite a [awesome][awesome][tup][tup][awesome][awesome]

EDIT: Here are some minor grammar tweaks to add:

However his status as a State Alchemist would soon expire and Shou Tucker, not wanting to lose his status, created another talking Chimera by fusing Nina and her dog Alexander into a miserable Half-Human Hybrid.

While Scar kills him in the same chapter he was introduced, Tucker's actions would forever stain the Elric brothers' memories.

edited 19th Apr '16 2:20:55 AM by Shadao

Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#56872: Apr 19th 2016 at 3:40:37 AM

Late [tup] for manga version of Tucker. Putting your own daughter in a Fate Worse than Death is really vile. And the fact that he's widely despised by fans and even Hiromu Arakawa herself.

edited 19th Apr '16 3:45:09 AM by Kookosbanaani

YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#56873: Apr 19th 2016 at 4:25:54 AM

Like I said, it's been quite a while since I read FMA so I didn't intend to give a firm vote, just share my impression. Glad it didn't ultimately affect things.

(Yes, I need to just do my own proposals one of these days, but there are only so many hours in the day.)

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56874: Apr 19th 2016 at 5:04:38 AM

[up] Hey, I've only done like 4 proposals myself [lol]. Not all of us can be lighty [lol].
Please add the revised Shou entry to the drafts.

edited 19th Apr '16 6:05:14 AM by ACW

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#56875: Apr 19th 2016 at 7:16:45 AM

Shou Tucker's rewrite doesn't need to be too lengthy - the guy was in like a few chapters and a single episode of the Brotherhood anime adaptation after all. tongue

edited 19th Apr '16 7:17:42 AM by ANewMan


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