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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Animeking1108 Since: Jan, 2010
#56476: Apr 12th 2016 at 9:22:22 AM

A while ago, I suggested Magma Dragoon from Mega Man X4, but nobody responded. I decided to update my original suggestion.

He first appears at the Sky Lagoon, a floating city, to deliver a warning to X or Zero (depending on who you play as) that the City will come crashing into the ground. While X and Zero escape, the city is destroyed, with thousands, if not millions, dead and causes the events that lead Repliforce to get labeled as Mavericks. The next time the player sees him, they learn that he betrayed the Hunters. When X or Zero confront him, he reveals that he was the one who destroyed the Sky Lagoon. What makes it worse is that he did it for a very petty reason (he wanted to fight X or Zero). He hints that Sigma convinced him to do it just so he could fulfill his desire. In Zero's story line, he gives a rather hallow apology for it. In X's story line, he brags that he would do it again if he could, and he doesn't even apologize like he did in Zero's.

Unlike Sigma, whose atrocities throughout the series could be blamed on him being subjected to the Maverick Virus, the game heavily implies that Dragoon did what he did on his own volition. As far as the Heinous Standard goes, this was before the Erasure Incident from Mega Man X5, so at this point, Dragoon had done more damage than Sigma and killed more innocent people on-screen (combining that with the confusing canonicity of the Erasure crashing into Earth set by Mega Man X6). Much like Roy Phillips, the attempts to make him sympathetic does not justify his actions.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56477: Apr 12th 2016 at 9:35:32 AM

What is the overall heinous standard for Mega Man?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56478: Apr 12th 2016 at 9:39:53 AM

Speaking of Mega Man, wasn't Remake!Sigma approved awhile ago?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#56479: Apr 12th 2016 at 9:41:02 AM

Have we discussed Fallout 4 in this thread? Because I've got one that I think merits deliberation: the Brotherhood leader Elder Maxson. But I don't want to write up an effortpost if it's already been discussed and shot down.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56480: Apr 12th 2016 at 9:55:26 AM

[up] Go for it. There was a brief discussion of the game in general, but I don't think anyone was discussed in detail. Though Maxson seems like he could be a WIE.

edited 12th Apr '16 9:56:56 AM by ACW

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#56481: Apr 12th 2016 at 9:57:49 AM

[up][up]We never discussed anyone from Fallout 4 because nobody was thought to count. Elder Arthur Maxson doesn't count because, while he does want to commit genocide on all nonhuman species, he genuinely cares about his soldiers under his command. When he discovers one of his paladins named Dance is actually a Synth, he decides to let him live because Dance saved many Brotherhood lives.

edited 12th Apr '16 9:58:53 AM by LoreDeluxe

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#56482: Apr 12th 2016 at 10:04:56 AM

No, he doesn't.

He can be persuaded to do so by a player with a high enough Charisma check, but until that point, his orders are that Danse - the single most loyal soldier in his army - must be put to death with extreme prejudice. Even if he's convinced to spare Danse, he states that Danse is to be considered officially terminated and if he ever comes near the Brotherhood again, he will be shot on sight.

After that point, taking Danse with you as a Companion will set the Brotherhood to hostile and have them constantly attempt to kill both him and you until you change to a different companion, even if you've been nothing but a faithful Brotherhood soldier and completed the game with their faction. He can be persuaded to temporarily show leniency through a fairly difficult speech check, but doubles down on the "Danse and anyone affiliated with him must die" decision immediately after.

edited 12th Apr '16 10:07:36 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56483: Apr 12th 2016 at 10:07:55 AM

What Tobias said. I'm all for an effort post on Elder Arthur Maxson.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#56484: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:03:09 AM

What's the Work?

Fallout 4

Who is he?

Elder Arthur Maxson is the leader of an organization known as the Brotherhood of Steel. His ancestor, Roger Maxson, founded the organization. He originally belonged to the Capitol Branch of the organization, which - under the leadership of Elder Lyons - had abandoned the Brotherhood's ideology of hording technology in favor of using their resources and weapons to help the people who are suffering in the dangerous post-apocalyptic setting.

When Lyons died, Maxson brokered an alliance with the Brotherhood exiles who scorned the idea of being a sort of Wasteland police force and brought them and their philosophy back into the fold. He was appointed Elder at the age of 16 and brought the Brotherhood back to its roots: collecting and hording all the advanced technology they can get in order to keep it out of humanity's hands, while also defending an abstract concept of "humanity" through genocidal slaughter of anyone too mutated to qualify.

Four years later at age 20, Maxson arrives in the Commonwealth with a full-scale military occupation in order to, in his own words, prevent one war by declaring another one. He declares a secret organization, the Institute, to be enemies of the Brotherhood because they create Synths, sapient androids capable of perfectly imitating human life. While much of the game is spent on the question of what - if any - rights Synths deserve to have and whether or not the Institute's usage of them is acceptable, Maxson's position is unambiguous: all Synths must be put to death and the Institute must be burned to the ground.

What has he done?

Due to his leadership role, he doesn't have very many opportunities to personally commit onscreen atrocity, but he makes the most of what opportunities he has. For most of the game, the Brotherhood's general heinousness is communicated by the attitudes of its grunts and their general enthusiasm for wholesale massacring synths and mutants, while Maxson is limited to angry speeches and offhand comments about the importance of killing the Brotherhood's designated enemies.

"This campaign will be costly and many lives will be lost. But in the end, we will be saving humankind from its worst enemy…itself."

But for onscreen heinousness, Maxson gets his turn near the end. The player is introduced to the Brotherhood through Paladin Danse, a high-ranking Brotherhood soldier who's been with the organization for years and believes wholeheartedly in its cause. Danse sends the signal that brings the Brotherhood to the Commonwealth, he vouches for the Sole Survivor to join the organization, and he guides the Solve Survivor as a mentor. All the while, he speaks highly of Maxson and his immense respect for the man.

When it's discovered through hacking Institute files that Danse is a synth, Maxson returns the favor on Danse's respect and service by immediately demanding his execution - while insisting on referring to Danse with the pronoun "it" to signify that he is not human and should not exist. He sends the Sole Survivor with the mission but secretly goes in person to ensure the Sole Survivor doesn't get cold feet.

While he can be persuaded to spare Danse's life with a high enough Speech check, he does so only on the grounds that Danse is to be considered officially dead, is to never have contact with a Brotherhood soldier again, and will be shot on sight if he is ever seen by anyone within the organization. From that point on, even the Sole Survivor will be targeted by Brotherhood soldiers if seen in Danse's company.

After either ensuring Danse is killed or being convinced to show temporary leniency, Maxson returns to his airship to give the Sole Survivor his or her next set of commands. There is an organization called the Railroad, an obvious allusion to the Underground Railroad, dedicated to liberating Synths from the Institute and reprogramming them with new identities so they can lead new lives free from the Institute's slavery. Because of their affiliation with helping Synths, Maxson wants every last member exterminated before taking the fight to the Institute, burning them to the ground, and killing all their Synths.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities

Possibly. Maxson has a Knight Templar ideology. He's defending an abstract concept of "humanity" by crushing living humans and other sapient lives with an iron boot. It's also possible that he might have a chip on his shoulder due to the legacy of his ancestor who founded the Brotherhood; his heinousness may be overcompensation for the burden of living up to Roger Maxson's shadow at the ripe young age of 16.

Heinousness

The only other character who might rival Maxson's heinousness would be the Institute's leader, Father, who has his people creating Synths, enslaving them, and running experiments on the Wasteland with callous disregard for the people who live there. But while the Institute has many implied offenses, Father himself is lacking for onscreen villainy and has redeemable qualities.

Verdict

I'm honestly not sure. Maxson is definitely the closest candidate Fallout 4 has for a Complete Monster; a genocidal monster with no redeeming traits and an abject refusal of a golden opportunity to see the error of his ways. His family history and implications of his youth may serve to mitigate his heinousness, however.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#56485: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:07:33 AM

While Elder Maxson is certainly a bad guy this time around and a textbook Fallen Hero, he is nowhere near bad enough to count compared to some of the other Fallout examples. The heinous standard aside, he still has enough positive qualities that he really can't be called a Complete Monster. A New Man said just a few entries ago that we might be letting in people with genocidal goals without looking for disqualifying factors. [tdown]

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#56487: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:12:38 AM

Wait why are we discussing Fallen and Unicron for specific mediums? Aren't they supposed to be multiversal entities? Their crimes are already listed as such.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56488: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:16:33 AM

They no longer count as the same individual across the multiverse according to the new Transformers canon.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56489: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:18:09 AM

I'm guessing this is like Canon!Palpatine and Legends!Palpatine?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56490: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:19:24 AM

No. It's just different interpretations of the same character in different mediums.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#56491: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:25:46 AM

[up][up] Both Palpatines qualify though.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56492: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:28:35 AM

What does that have to do with anything? The question was about which versions were non-canon.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56493: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:31:38 AM

Abstaining on Manson due to potential redeeming qualities.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#56494: Apr 12th 2016 at 11:50:09 AM

No to Maxson. Despite being genocidal towards synths I still think he counts as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. The world of Fallout involves mankind living in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland where mutants and monsters run rampant and humanity was nearly wiped out. The Brotherhood of Steel views technology as to blame and seeks to keep dangerous technology out of people's hands so such a near human extinction will never happen again. Looking at it in that light, it's easy to see Maxson as wiping out synths to save humanity. Given that synths are created by the Institute, which does commit ungodly crimes against the people of the wasteland For Science!, and there are cases where synths have infiltrated a group and gone kill crazy, his paranoia over synths being the next big danger to mankind's survival is understandable. Also, he does seem to be A Father to His Men. One of the things that gets Maxson to spare Danse is that Danse has saved many Brotherhood lives. And no matter what he does afterwards, Maxson allowing Danse to live at all is still a pretty big Pet the Dog moment for him as Maxson not only views all synths as a danger, but Danse has knowledge of the Brotherhood's workings that could pose a danger to them if it fell into the Institute's hands, and Maxson still lets him live so long as Danse stays away. Also, given that a lot of monsters on the Fallout page are particularly vicious and this is a Crapsack World, I'd say Maxson isn't heinous enough to count, given his resources.

edited 12th Apr '16 11:52:26 AM by OccasionalExister

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#56496: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:00:38 PM

For an image of Devilman, how about these two?

[1]

[2]

Why so serious?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#56498: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:07:01 PM

Oh, definitely. Second one [tup]

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#56499: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:28:41 PM

Like the second one; who is that?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#56500: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:35:16 PM

It's Amon.

Why so serious?

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