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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#50301: Jan 8th 2016 at 7:21:22 AM

Nevermind. I'm abstaining on Vosch for now. Maybe I'll see the movie and see if Movie!Vosch qualifies later.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#50302: Jan 8th 2016 at 7:43:48 AM

Abstaining on Vosch and Malik.

I agree about watching the entire work that a character appears in before proposing them (personally, I even take notes on who they are and what they do as I watch). It's easier to do with one-off villains, but can take quite a while with Big Bad level characters, although in both cases, it's worth taking the time to do the job thoroughly (which is kind of why my effort posts tend to be on the lengthy side).

As far as Yellow Diamond goes, I had a feeling a while back that she'd end up being discussed here, but we need to see a lot more of her before coming to a decision. But, since we've seen a simulation of what would have become of Earth if Gem colonization had succeeded, I think it counts as enough evidence of how heinous an act it is (although whether she alone would have been responsible for it is an open question). The Cluster is definitely over the line for a kids' show, though.

@ACW, There's a grammatical error in Unalaq's entry; one line reads: "[T]hreatens to destroy the soul of Jinora, a little girl, to force Korra to assist him, then tries condemning Jinora to the Fog of Lost Souls and murder Korra even after she opened the portal." I think it's supposed to say "[T]hreatens to destroy the soul of Jinora, a little girl, to force Korra to assist him, then tries to condemn Jinora to the Fog of Lost Souls and murder Korra even after she opened the portal". Also, the first line in Joker's entry has a comma after his name that doesn't need to be there.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#50303: Jan 8th 2016 at 7:48:00 AM

That's interesting; I do the same thing when I'm reading books and watching movies.

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#50304: Jan 8th 2016 at 7:52:56 AM

[up]Well, it just makes sense. Memory alone can be pretty unreliable, and, for me, anyway, poor writing doesn't send the best impression of oneself (the fact that I use words like "oneself" kind of says a lot about me, I think). It's like quality assurance. At any rate, in my experience, the effort usually pays off.

edited 8th Jan '16 7:54:46 AM by DeCarta

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#50305: Jan 8th 2016 at 7:54:38 AM

Abstaining on both.

Also I forgot how much I hated S3 of Sherlock, the Magnussen effortpost may take a bit.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50306: Jan 8th 2016 at 8:01:48 AM

[up][up]Probably why I rewatched In the Name of the King to see if Gallian counted. I'd watched the full film before, but if I hadn't rewatched it now, I'd have not known about a lot of Gallian's crimes.

edited 8th Jan '16 8:02:53 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#50307: Jan 8th 2016 at 8:11:29 AM

In the Gregor Clegane write up, I really have to stress how ugly the entry looks with the quote at the end. It's quite literally the ONLY Complete Monster entry that has a quote at the end and bloats an already long entry. It should be removed like a malignant tumor.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50308: Jan 8th 2016 at 8:15:33 AM

[up] Fair enough, but it's not the only one.
DeCarta: Thanks. I think they should be good now.

edited 8th Jan '16 8:16:01 AM by ACW

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#50309: Jan 8th 2016 at 8:52:55 AM

[up]Honestly, the Maxwell Roth entry should also have it's quote cut. There is really no practical reason to have a quote below the entry considering we already have a Complete Monster quotes page. Granted it's not that big of an issue on a YMMV page, but on the actual Complete Monster page it just looks off considering it's not something we normally do with the entries.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#50310: Jan 8th 2016 at 9:03:08 AM

I've been working on a new trope page (a fanficiton, to be precise) as it is updated. Soul Eater fans should know who I'm talking about when I'm proposing Medusa Gorgon, but from her depiction in Soul Eater: Troubled Souls.

Who Is She? The fanfic respects canon, so while it may sound redundant, I'm going to explain anyway: Medusa Gorgon is a witch and the middle child of the Gorgon Sisters. She is a scientist who is responsible for the revival of the Kishin, a demon god entity whose every existence drives people to insanity. She is also the mother of a child named Crona. As part of her plans, she removes Crona's regular blood and replaces it with Black Blood; meanwhile, she melts a weapon named Ragnarok and inserts it into the blood as well.

What Does She Do?

1. Coerces Crona into murdering a helpless old man and then an Evil Human implied to be his/her father. When he/she was still a child.

2. She escapes death by possessing the body of "some person from the slum nobody cares about," she claims,

3. Medusa's treatment of her younger sister, Shaula Gorgon, is nearly as bad as with Crona. When Shaula fails to destroy Death Weapon Meister Academy from the inside, Medusa betrays her and tries to steal her soul to power up a curse. And she has the nerve to speak badly of Shaula when she crosses her. Oh, and when Shaula is severely injured from her attack on the DWMA, Medusa just stood there and watched until she escaped the city by herself, confronting her then.

4. Brainwashed an innocent young lady named Krysa to act as a figurehead villain until someone (Crona) figures out her deception.

5. Used magic outlawed by both Lord Death and the witches to help enhance the subterfuge in #4.

6. Tricks the main group of characters into coming into her domain by using a fake mission (#4 and #5 also play a hand in this). Supposedly, to make sure none of the DWMA's higher-ups grew suspect of the fake mission, she also requests the presence of others (Original Characters) that she allegedly randomly picked out of a hat, meaning they literally could've been anyone else.

7. As the group advances through her domain, a curse targets personality traits (like will and courage) or special abilities (ability to resonate with weapons, pryokinesis) and seals them. Many of the characters become unable to fight or even operate as a result. How does she find out what to take? Subjects them to games full of death traps and deliberately rigs them to her advantage (and even TELLS them that when Crona figures out she's behind the plot).

8. Remember those Original Characters from #6? They didn't even know Medusa existed and vice versa. Yet, Medusa treats them as badly as the canon characters, who DO know Medusa and vice versa.

9. Finally, she wants to use the Black Blood to resonate and fuse with the Kishin via Madness, an action called insane in-universe because controlling Madness is, well, insane.

Excuse, Mitigating Factors, Redeeming Qualities, Heinous Standard? None whatsoever. She revels in the chaos she causes and wants to cause. Her taunts reek of smugness. And any "kindness" from her is played for manipulation or belittlement. No regret for her actions, either, only that she failed to win in the end. Oh, and she reacts rather violently or darkly when things fall apart for her.

edited 8th Jan '16 9:39:54 AM by erazor0707

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50311: Jan 8th 2016 at 9:13:37 AM

Alright Lore, I've cut the quotes. Try them now (I have added the quotes to Complete Monster though, as they're too good not to be there).

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#50313: Jan 8th 2016 at 9:58:28 AM

[up][up]This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why do we change things immediately. Yesterday you said it was a good point. Why immediately do the opposite then? It's the middle of a work day, if anyone had a different opinion, how do you think they'll be able to respond in time before it's automatically changed? I remember that one guy got suspended because he would not stop cutting or changing examples before everyone on the forum had a chance to state their opinion. I'm not saying I disagree with cutting the quote, but can more than one person state an opinion before these things go into effect?

edited 8th Jan '16 10:00:57 AM by OccasionalExister

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50314: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:01:07 AM

[up] Um, dude? I haven't submitted them yet for the CM pages. That's gonna wait until Sunday or so (just like the usual weekly group I do Saturday and submit Monday). I've only cut Roth's quote from the YMMV page (where it can easily be put back), and Gregor's entry is only on the CM page. I'm fine either way on the quotes myself.

edited 8th Jan '16 10:05:02 AM by ACW

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#50315: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:18:23 AM

[tup] Medusa Gorgon.

edited 8th Jan '16 10:18:47 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Cakeman Since: Dec, 2012
#50316: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:19:19 AM

I figured he was doing that so that he could manipulate Ben easier...and I didn't propose him simply because a lot of people reading the book hated him...I just figured he was really heinous...

edited 8th Jan '16 10:19:43 AM by Cakeman

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#50317: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:26:33 AM

[up] Don't get me wrong, he really does sound like a piece of work. But when it comes to Complete Monsters, there cannot be a single ounce of redeeming qualities, etc., otherwise they don't count. A Serial Killer from a series who's massacred hundreds over the span of a decade isn't a CM if he/she loves his/her family. But a Serial Killer from another series who raped twelve women and then killed them, and is responsible for killing his or her own parents, is, even though the body count is much lower.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Cakeman Since: Dec, 2012
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50319: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:39:49 AM

[up][up]Though it must be said, in the same work, neither would count (assuming the same resources), as the first has a redeeming quality, but the second isn't as heinous.
Which brings me to The Hateful Eight. SPOILER ALERT
Nobody counts I think. Even disregarding the Black-and-Gray Morality (verging on Black-and-Black Morality), two of the gang members are siblings who seem to care for each other (plus the sister isn't as bad heinous wise). The 3 other gang members could count, except for the one scene where, before enacting their plan, they embrace each other and wish each other good luck...seems more than a formality and enough to disqualify.
Movie's worth seeing BTW, if you're a Tarantino fan.

edited 8th Jan '16 10:40:06 AM by ACW

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#50320: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:44:29 AM

[up] Right, that is a good point. Hence the reason why it's probably going to be impossible for someone else from Supernatural to be added.

Still haven't seen that movie yet, not sure why. >__<

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
MovieFan2000 Since: Jan, 2016
#50321: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:46:21 AM

[tup] Medusa Gorgon. Looks like even in Fan Fic she never change.

Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#50322: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:47:53 AM

Has it been two weeks already? Anyway I agree with ACW, no one in The Hateful Eight counts. The villains all clearly care about each others, from the two siblings who want the other safe to the dying members who bargain their own bodies to have Daisy freed.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50323: Jan 8th 2016 at 10:52:23 AM

Yeah, it's been 2 weeks (well, not since the "official" release, but since the roadshow release anyway).

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#50324: Jan 8th 2016 at 11:22:21 AM

Portia Perez isn't evil enough because she didn't succeed in killing anyone. Ox Baker isn't evil enough because he 'only' killed two people.

Ox Baker continually tried to kill people after Alberto Torress and taunted fans that his opponent's next match could be their last. So his intent to kill another victim only succeeded once, that's still a graveyard's worth of attempts even if he only managed to fill one grave. Who was there to compare to? Abdullah, for all his fork stabbings, never admitted to trying to kill anyone, making it clear everything he did was for money. Dutch Mantel was(is?) a bigot but he still cared about people's well being on some level because he warned the Puerto Ricans he saw as inferior to walkaway so they wouldn't get hurt. Ray Gonzales went out of his way to ruin lives, but never tried to end them. Ox Baker was clearly unique in his region and era as far as evil goes.

I'm not asking you to put Ox Baker back on the page, but on the frequently asked questions and request post it is clearly stated that success doesn't matter as much as intent. If you're making an exception in Baker's case my request is that you edit this frequently asked questions and requests posts to explain why an exception is being made in Ox Baker's case, that is unless his absence from the list is because you're still open to putting him back on in the future.

Buldogue's lawyer
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50325: Jan 8th 2016 at 12:27:10 PM

@Tyk Well, on redeeming qualities, I am hoping there will be a distinction between redeeming qualities and a redeeming "moment". Like, a villain doing something that could be construed as decent (returning a penny to someone who lost it, for instance) shouldn't necessarily be enough to disqualify them.

edited 8th Jan '16 12:27:20 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?

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