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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#50101: Jan 5th 2016 at 12:54:02 PM

@futuremoviewriter:

The process is:

1. Two weeks after an episode airs where the candidate's arc ends (usually when they die or at least are put out of commission for a good while) someone makes an effortpost in this thread only.

2. We vote on it. It's not like a jury where EVERYONE voting has to agree [tup] and those people need to successfully convince each one of the [tdown]'s why they're wrong, but there should be a significant spread of [tup] votes to [tdown] votes, usually at least five.

3. Someone—usually the person who made the original effortpost—does a draft write-up.

4. The rest of us give feedback on the write-up and how it could be changed or improved in any way.

5. The write-up's author incorporates these changes.

6. Finally, the write-up's author adds the entry to the YMMV page of that work.

At no point before step 6 is any YMMV page touched at all—everything needs to be discussed within this thread before a CM entry is added. That happened with Garrett and Whitehall, as well as every CM entry on TV Tropes that hasn't been removed at some point (at least in theory). That hasn't happened yet with Malick. Be patient until at least two weeks after the episode where his arc ends, and we'll discuss it.

(With standard TV shows I think the waiting time may only be reduced to one week, since unlike movies or Netflix shows where a typically 13-episode season is released all at once, it is reasonable that only a week may be required for everyone to get caught up on this single 44-minute episode. However, I'm not 100% sure about this)

edited 5th Jan '16 12:57:27 PM by speyeker

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#50102: Jan 5th 2016 at 1:02:08 PM

[up]I take it movies are different. Blofeld isn't dead and we still voted on him two weeks after the movie came out.

[up][up]What's the difference? All Blofelds except the one in Spectre are supposed to be the same character.

edited 5th Jan '16 1:03:46 PM by futuremoviewriter

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#50103: Jan 5th 2016 at 1:03:51 PM

[up]Just making sure. And Spectre's Blofeld was arrested at the end of the movie; arc closed, good to go for voting.

edited 5th Jan '16 1:04:56 PM by DeCarta

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50104: Jan 5th 2016 at 1:06:40 PM

I THINK it was decided 1 week for TV, but not sure if this was solidified (and if it was, it needs to be added to the FAQ).

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#50105: Jan 5th 2016 at 1:46:45 PM

Can a Complete Monster be "stupid" and therefore unaware of what they're doing? Or be a drug addict? Or would this cloud their moral agency. Like suppose Peter Griffin shed all his redeeming qualities, was no longer funny, etc in a fanwork. Would we count him or would he be too "stupid" to know better?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#50106: Jan 5th 2016 at 1:56:57 PM

Oh, hypotheticals, how much we hate thee. No, a character must be possessed of volition and moral agency to qualify to be a Complete Monster. Acting under the influence of drug addiction is potentially exonerating depending on whether the acts in question are seen to be representative of the character's freely chosen will or things that they would not do if they were in their proper mind.

How the story treats the character is crucial. If they are seen as a depraved beast, it's much different than if they are seen as an unfortunately afflicted individual. The question, as always, is whether they could seek redemption, whether they do or not.

Being too stupid to know they're doing wrong is an absolute disqualifier, however.

edited 5th Jan '16 2:04:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#50107: Jan 5th 2016 at 1:58:16 PM

I'm kind of the opinion these constant hypotheticals by people who've been part of the cleanup for years...aren't necessary. If you have an example, then post it and list potential mitigating factors.

Agent Stanfield, from Leon btw, chooses to drug himself up before going on killing sprees for fun. I think that is not a mitigating thing myself given his intent beforehand

edited 5th Jan '16 2:14:49 PM by Lightysnake

Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#50108: Jan 5th 2016 at 3:14:35 PM

For another example, the Joker in, well, Joker despises sanity and, as a result, sobriety, so he takes as many drugs as possible because he inevitably goes on random killing sprees. It's not a mitigating factor because 1) he has no remorse when he sobers up 2) he knows perfectly well what he's doing and 3) he really likes it.

edited 5th Jan '16 3:14:54 PM by Nithael

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#50109: Jan 5th 2016 at 3:23:15 PM

And both Fenrir Greyback and Donovan Grant deliberately placed themselves near large groups of people in time for their "urges" to go off.

edited 5th Jan '16 3:23:26 PM by HamburgerTime

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50110: Jan 5th 2016 at 3:28:41 PM

Alright, let's do a write-up for the Wicked Witch.

  • The Wicked: LaDean LaRene survived the Salem Witch Trials by feeding on children. For centuries, LaDean has haunted the town, devouring children in order to stay young and beautiful. When a young girl named Amanda throws rocks at her house, LaDean kidnaps her with the intention of killing her as well. When a group of teenagers arrive to save Amanda, LaDean kills two of them and eats them. She also murders a ranger by tearing out his throat. She later kills a police officer inspecting her house. She finally attempts to suck out the souls of the teenagers when they try to stop her.

edited 5th Jan '16 3:28:52 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#50111: Jan 5th 2016 at 3:31:41 PM

Daniel Lugo as portrayed in Pain and Gain would be one character who's simply too stupid to really comprehend his own criminality, though his steroid abuse is the catalyst in only one (accidental) murder.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#50112: Jan 5th 2016 at 5:53:14 PM

Late [tup] to La Rene. [tdown] to Charlie. Keep Shrieker.

edited 5th Jan '16 5:58:32 PM by Overlord

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#50113: Jan 5th 2016 at 5:55:59 PM

[tup] LaDean.

edited 5th Jan '16 5:56:38 PM by AustinDR

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50114: Jan 5th 2016 at 6:04:51 PM

Changing my Charlie Jolson vote to a [tdown].

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#50115: Jan 5th 2016 at 6:22:36 PM

Okay now I know I previously said there were no more candidates from this series, but I managed to find one more. So here is my third candidate (and this time I’m pretty certain final candidate) from A Touch of Frost:

Bill Ford from “Near Death Experience” in Season Twelve.

Who is he: Bill Ford initially appears to simply be a caring brother-in-law, who is concerned with his sister-in-law Lucy Croft, irresponsible ex-boyfriend Steve Markham still bothering her, and then caring uncle towards his niece Helen Croft, when she is attacked and her mother is murdered.

In reality, Bill Ford is a methodical and intelligent Serial Killer, responsible for the murder of six women (with Lucy being victim number six). He targets attractive women in their early forties. Working in a construction and supplying, he used his career to find victims then get the keys to their homes off them for job his company will do. Afterwards he kept hold of the keys until he was ready to strike.

Breaking into their homes, he would force his victims onto their knees. Tie their arms and legs together, then degrade and mildly torture them before killing them with a series of violent stabs to the abdomen (in Lucy’s case seven). He also cuts a small lock of each of his victim’s hair off, to keep as trophy.

Then upon exiting he would then break the glass and set off the alarm, so it looks like he broke in conventionally, all so someone will find his victims due to a twisted pride he takes in what he has done. He’s described by forensic psychiatrist Martine Philips as a psychosexual killer and compares the pleasure he gets from killing women to having an orgasm. He likewise keeps the hair to recall the thrill of each kill he committed.

Each time he killed, he improved a bit altering his methods slightly as he gained experience. In the case of Lucy Croft he broke into her home, and disabled her daughter (his niece) by bashing her head against the shower wall and leaving her unconsciously bleeding (just for reference Helen is fifteen). He then attacks her mother, and performs his standard ritual killing her while she’s on her knee’s, after mildly torturing (by which I mean he lightly cuts his victims in several places, like in this cases on her hands). Dying she tried to make it to locket Bill himself had given her, but succumbed to her wounds before she was able to.

When we next see Bill he’s watching his niece in hospital and tries to get rid of Steve when he comes to visit. Likewise he is present when Helen awakens. However knowing the police are getting closer he speeds up his timeline, and begins planning his next kill. Investigating similar unsolved murders, Frost turns up five other cases, spreading over three neighbouring counties. One victim each year, for the last six years.

This being Bill’s pattern, killing one woman each year in the autumn. He proceeds to murder his next victim, another attractive middle aged woman, who he kills in own home through his standard procedure. He later meets Frost again at the Hospital, now that Helen has awakened, as it turns out she can’t remember anything about the man who attacked her. Talking to Frost he claims people like the killer are shadows who disappear into the night, and when Frost claims he will catch him Bill quotes a passage from the Bible, seemingly to encourage him.

However Bill is already planning his next murder. That night, upon Martine appearing on the evening news report (having been caught on camera at the crime scene) Bill attacks her outside her own car dressed up in his gear (a white face mask showing only his eyes and mouth, all-black clothes, and leather gloves) and threatens her, claiming he knows what she does, she knows nothing and that they can’t stop him from claiming his next victim. He slams her head against the side of her car, and drags his knife down its side in front of it to punctuate the threat, then leaves.

While investigating the next day Sergeant Razor finds out that his previous victim had used Bill’s construction company, meaning he would have the keys to her house. Getting the information, Frost finally realises that it was the Locket the Lucy had been heading towards. And examining her sister’s identical one, he finds a lock of woman’s hair inside it a gift from Bill to both sisters.

Knowing the killer will strike again that night, the police have forces mobilised to protect the final four potential victims. When Frost realises which one will strike, and has everyone waiting to apprehend him. Sure enough Bill breaks into her home, and tries to make her his eighth victim. However an officer accidentally knocks a vase, alerting him and causing him to run.

Sargent Razor tries to apprehend him, but he stabs him in the arm and manages to get past him. Seeing him Inspector Frost gives case, followed by several other officers. Running into a nearby warehouse he follows Bill up to the top of a platform. Confronting Bill, he tries to talk him down. But instead Bill tries to stab Frost to death.

However as Frost is wearing a stab proof jacket, he survives and manages to overpower and disarm Bill (though he seriously cuts his hand doing so). Bill is thrown into the back of the police van, talking to Frost his Mask of Sanity fully broken away he displays his true violent, arrogant and predatorily personality to him. Before demanding to know how did Frost know who his next victim would be.

Frost responds by revealing he figured out that Bill’s seemingly encouraging biblical quotation was in fact a clue to who he planned to kill next. As Frost himself put it, Bill’s ego was so great, he couldn’t resist giving Frost a hint, so bask in his superiority when he failed.

Heinous Standard: As I said before “A Touch Of Frost” is a dark series, however Bill Ford is something impressive. Before him I didn’t believe anyone had killed more than four people on this show (and that was only one example), with seven murders under his belt he is well beyond that of almost of the shows antagonist (and yes, its defiantly, seven we get multiple quite detailed shots of the pictures of his other five victims in the episode).

Now it should be noted that Bill isn’t the only Serial Killer to appear in the series. But really the other two don’t compare. The first is a mentally unbalanced man, who when he’s not killing is one of the nicest people you could ever meet (and no this isn’t an act, he is honestly that nice and also kills people). Abandoned by his teenage mother, and raised by an abusive grandmother (who he still lives with as an adult, and who still abuses him). As such he took to killing elderly women on the anniversary of his mother’s birthday (he’s the one I mentioned with four victims, and two of them were off-screen and only mentioned). Likewise he clearly loved his grandmother.

The second likewise doesn’t count (and barely really qualifies as he only killed two people, with Frost foiling his third attempted murder) simply cause he’s to insane to be held responsible for his actions. Basically he drove himself made with guilt and shame, following drowning his little sister in a fit of envy as a boy, he ended up believing his sister was actually a mermaid (It Makes Sense in Context) and that he had set her free. As such in his adulthood he took to drowning women who reminded him of his sister, believing they were mermaids to and he was setting them free to swim forever. It’s summed up best in ending when he’s in interrogation, he so convinced of his delusions that he can’t even grasp the idea that he’s hurt anyone.

Now there is already one confirmed Complete Monster in the series: Captain Charlie Lawson, a man who abused his family,repeatedly raped his granddaughters, murdered his own son, and murdered Frosts apprentice and friend Clive Bernard.

Comparing them is tricky, Bill never raped anyone; however he did brutally murdered seven women and took pride in what he had done. Likewise he also endangered his own niece’s life as she was an inconvenience, and was a generally all around lunatic.

As such I would say their about even, with Charlie perhaps being just ever so slightly worse.

Any redeeming Traits or Freudian excuse: He gives his reasons to Frost after he catches them, basically he spent his life apparently being a nice guy (with no evidence to this but his own claim it should be noted) only to be ignored by women in favour rougher fellas, and was apparently rejected by Lucy at some point in the past. In his own words he climaxes his explanation “you know you’re not good enough, so you teach them…yeah…you show them, you show them BITCHES what a man can do, you understand?” (Just to give an idea of his mental state when he says that, read it in Jack Nicholson’s voice).

Now not only does this not come close to justifying anything he did and is obviously misogynistic, it’s also quite hypocritical as Bill’s already married to Lucy’s quite attractive sister Sylvia. To make matters worse he doesn’t even target Lucy till long after he’s started killing. Basically the guy is a misogynist, a hypocrite and a lunatic.

Bill is married to Sylvia, but he never shows her any affection or care throughout the entire episode. Likewise she is having an affair (which he is unaware about), showing they didn’t have a close marriage. It’s even slightly implied that he married her as sort of way to get back at Lucy for rejecting him.

Bill also appears to care for his niece Helen going to hospital while she’s unconscious, and appearing happy when she awakens. However as it was him who put her in this state (while he didn’t intend to kill her, he was still perfectly happy to serious injure her and put her life in danger, just get to her mother) it suggest his seeming affection was just another part of his act.

Bill also voices his disapproval of Lucy’s ex-boyfriend Steve, who is reckless, irresponsible and drinks too much. However considering who he truly is and what he does to Lucy, it’s clearly not out of any care for her and he’s simply being a self-righteous hypocrite.

Bill also doesn’t kill Martine when he threatens her, however due to his happiness to murder all those other women, it’s clearly not out of any standard or sense of mercy. Its cause she simply doesn’t fit his pattern, and is in situation that’s not entirely in his control (such is said Martine herself when analysing his actions), due to him getting a lot of his pleasure over being able to dominate his victims completely.

Bill does admit to some pride in a local workshop set up the church to help teach youths some skills, which he also runs. However its later revealed this is his base where he keeps his supplies to murder people, so that its more difficult to trace it back to him.

It’s also slightly implied Bill’s seeming catholic beliefs maybe genuine, however if this is the case it just makes him even more of a hypocrite.

Conclusion: Really I think he’s a keeper, the guys a brutal serial killer, who not only kills over half a dozen innocent women, but takes pride out of having done so. To my knowledge holds the shows record for the most victims.

Likewise the ending makes it clear the friendly genial personality he showed throughout most of his appearances was merely a mask to cover the truly evil psycho he was.

He has no justification for what he does, shows no remorse or standard that doesn’t prove to either be false or hypocritical. The guys a twisted mixture of ego, hypocrisy, misogyny and brutality, and really something set above the rest of the shows villains (with one exception).

What do you think, does he qualify or not?

edited 5th Jan '16 6:31:01 PM by MGD107

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#50116: Jan 5th 2016 at 6:52:49 PM

I'll give a [tup] to Bill Ford. Sure, he doesn't rape anyone, but you don't have to commit every heinous act in the book to be a CM. Captain Lawson is an incestuous, abusive rapist; Ford is a misogynistic, hypocritical Serial Killer. They both fit the bill for different reasons.

All right, so far it's 0 [tup] and 4 (5?) [tdown] for Charlie. I'm gonna go ahead and cut him.

So when it comes to fanfics, is the waiting period one or two weeks? If it's only one, I'll go ahead and do another effortpost soon. If not, then I'll wait until next week.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#50118: Jan 5th 2016 at 7:27:24 PM

Since Pokémon are sentient creatures with equal intelligence at the very least to humans I think Hunter J should have her entry altered letting us know this and that she essentially tried to kill multiple Pokémon (though that's in the Pokémon Poacher job description) same thing with Mr Iron Masked Marauder. Because killing fully sentient and intelligent beings is just as heinous as trying to kill a perpetually ten year old kid.

I think some people misunderstood what Pokémon were and thought they were normal animals with special powers but many Pokedex entries have said otherwise.

Also I heard Anime!Ghetsis brought up before in passing when Giovanni was being discussed. He's probably a no there too but did we discuss him? Or Manga!Ghetsis for that matter?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50119: Jan 5th 2016 at 7:33:20 PM

Bill Ford has my vote. On a different subject, I've been trying to find a new image for Live-Action TV since Buffy is getting its own page soon, but I'm getting no results.

Why so serious?
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50120: Jan 5th 2016 at 7:46:14 PM

[up][up] Anime!Ghetsis is ridiculously standard even when compared to his game counterpart. His mental abuse and manipulation of N, Anthea, and Concordia is only alluded to in passing rather than shown to us in any great detail, and literally the only active thing he does in the entirety of his arc is spearhead the ceremony to revive Reshiram from the Light Stone and then order Reshiram to attack everyone and everything in the ruins, including his own Mooks. Otherwise he's a textbook Orcus on His Throne type villain who just barks orders at the people doing all the real work. Giovanni was more heinous that he was, so he's a definite [tdown].

As for Manga!Ghetsis, he's on my watchlist since he has the most potential out of any incarnation of the character, but we cannot discuss him since the BW 2 chapter hasn't ended yet so we can't make a full judgement of his actions and possible mitigating factors.

edited 5th Jan '16 7:48:19 PM by ANewMan

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50121: Jan 6th 2016 at 1:27:27 AM

[tup] Bill Ford.
Klavice, I wouldn't be opposed to a rewrite.
Clown-Face, once the Buffyverse page goes up (I know, I still gotta work on it; hopefully no later than next weekend), I'll start a new Image Pickin' thread. There are several images at ImageLinks.Complete Monster.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#50122: Jan 6th 2016 at 5:32:53 AM

Is anyone gonna work on my write up for Afton? It's on the ymmv page.

jjj
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50123: Jan 6th 2016 at 6:01:27 AM

[up] This weekend dude.
Okay, new rule: If you don't see the entry in the group I post Saturday, THEN you can ask. Otherwise, it's probably gonna be in there.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#50124: Jan 6th 2016 at 7:13:11 AM

So college starts again today where I live.

Whoo-hoo.

Now that Charlie's been discussed (he was someone in my mind for months now) there's only three more candidates on my to-do list: Habib Marwan, Navi Araz, and the fanfic villain I mentioned before, but I'll go ahead and wait until next week for him.

I won't be in this forum as much for reasons stated above, but before the month ends, I'm gonna rewatch Season 4 of 24 and do an effortpost of Marwan. I think Navi was discussed already, but some of us mentioned he doesn't fit the heinous standard and he should be cut, and then the discussion kind of just faded. But again, something was probably missed in the season, so I'll just rewatch it to confirm/deny anything.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
remystevens Since: Jan, 2015
#50125: Jan 6th 2016 at 8:05:25 AM

I think one to look out for is Blanque from Superman: Lois and Clark. He appears in issue 3 and the way Superman describes him sends up a red flag. He might be a nobody as there is no real cause to put him up there but I think he's someone to watch!

edited 6th Jan '16 8:12:42 AM by remystevens


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