During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I say keep Shrieker. It's obvious that he goes beyond what is normal evil for Hollows, which is enough to qualify.
Perfectly fine with Scraggle doing the effortpost for Bill, BTW.
Seriously though, let's all remember the two-week wait for Gravity Falls.
edited 4th Jan '16 8:05:14 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Update: So I've made much progress in The Getaway; about two-thirds of the way finished. But I'm starting to think Charlie might not count. He mentions in a cutscene that his nephew Jake is family, and that his has a "good heart" and "means well."
Now, I'm not sure what's necessary for him to be disqualified, but he may care about his nephew to some extent. I'll keep playing the game until I beat it; the effortpost should be up by tomorrow or Wednesday.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Thanks for explaining Shrieker guys (playing the "game" with the kid...the kid DID kill him FWIW).
Also, Klavice, Orochimaru been cut. Now it's just Hidan, Kazuma, and Momoshiki is on Lighty's to-do list.
So I take it the coast is clear ? Is Star Wars Force Awakens discussion over ? Because I still haven't seen it yet.
Onto business, Teen Wolf season 5B premiere is tonight and Theo Raken is still on my watch list. Also the trailer confirms Gerard is making a come back too and it looks like there's an Enemy Mine situation going on. Of course I doubt we'll be cutting or considering cutting Gerard anytime soon given his track record of subverting redeeming qualities and Freudian Excuses at every opportunity (Example A: "I want to kill werewolves for killing my daughter...nah I just needed an excuse to be bitten by an Alpha to become one and cure my own cancer, also I brainwash female members of my family to led other hunters as my puppets and in doing so turned my daughter into a pedophile so she can seduce a kid and murder his family". Example B: "Deucalion is an evil werewolf, a real threat, someone even I am afraid of...nah, it turns out he was a nice guy before I got a hold of him, I just framed him for the murders of my men and his pack and to add insult to injury, blinded him by stabbing flashbang arrows into his eyes).
edited 5th Jan '16 4:06:23 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."![]()
You say Gerard will return ? That would be great ! I've always considered the real Big Bad of the whole series.
![]()
Didn't know that, but thanks. He's added.
BTW, Lighty said he would do an effortpost on Connery-Era!Blofeld.
I'll discuss The Hateful Eight Friday.
edited 5th Jan '16 7:42:19 AM by ACW
Also, I did more research on the Open Hearth Witch. Her name is LaDean LaRene, and she was apparently around during the Salem witch hunts. She survived by feeding on children, and fifteen years before the events of the film, she had done the same to a group of kids who threw rocks at her house.
edited 5th Jan '16 12:18:45 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?Little late, but I'll go ahead and
Open Hearth Witch.
Okay, so I'm finally finished replaying The Getaway. Man, it's been forever since I played this on the PS 2. Gotta love that nostalgia. :p Anyway, here's Charlie Jolson.
Who Is He?
Charlie Jolson is the leader of the Bethnal Green Mob in London. According to a few comments, he's been in the crime business for at least thirty years, and he manages legitimate and illegitimate business all over the city. As the years progressed, and Charlie got much older, he slowly grew more and more intolerant of the new gangs appearing in the city and interfering with his business. Eventually, Charlie put his foot down and decided to take care of them all.
What Has He Done?
Now, the game takes place during two different characters' storylines that take place on the same day, so I'm gonna try to place all the events in order as they happen.
When the game opens up, Charlie Jolson' men, along with Yasmin, are seen kidnapping Mark Hammond's son, Alex. During the kidnapping, Harry kills Mark's wife. After Mark chases after Alex's kidnappers and runs into Charlie, his men knock him out. When Mark is woken up later, Charlie tells Mark that he has to do several favors for him all around the city, and if Mark fails any of them, he'll kill Alex. Mark, for his child's safety, agrees. Later on, shortly after his nephew, Jake, is arrested by Frank Carter, he arranges for him to be broken out by his cop on the inside, DCI McCormack. Charlie instructs Mc Cormack to keep Carter away from Jake's interrogation and has him sent across London to intercept a shipment owned by The Yardies.
Back on Mark's end, Charlie's first order is for Mark to burn down The Republic, a restaurant run by the Collins Gang—which Mark used to be a part of. Despite Mark's protests, Mark ends up going to the restaurant and destroys it, killing all the Collins gangsters inside. Later, Charlie tells Mark to hit The Triads next; he storms a museum they own, kills all the Triads inside, and steal a kilo of drugs from them. While this is all happening, Carter is at The Republic killing several Collins gangsters after hysteria broke out in the streets. He later goes on to handle a mass riot that ensues between the Yardies and the Triads after the Yardies believed the Triads tipped off the cops about the depot (which was really Charlie and Mc Cormack's doing). Dozens more are killed. After all the chaos calms down, Charlie forces Mark to break Jake Jolson out of the prison van he's in. During the chaos, at least six police officers are killed, and Carter is wounded in a car crash.
Shortly after Jake arrives at his uncle's warehouse, Jake has Mark take a high-ranking Triad member into Triad territory after Jake beats him to death. Mark leads the Triads into Yardie territory, which leads to another shootout resulting in the deaths of dozens of more gangsters. After the shootout ends, Harry tells Hammond, on Charlie's orders, that he must head into the Snow Hill police station and kill Mc Cormack, who's actually been The Starscream, and Yasmin, whom is one of Charlie's top assassins. Like all the other missions, Mark goes through with it, but spares Yasmin and teams up with her when she tells him she knows where Alex is. The two shoot their way through the police station and escape custody, where Charlie asks for yet another favor. Believing Yasmin is dead, he wants a "replacement," and tells Mark to head to a strip club run by the Collins Gang to retrieve a stripper named Layla. During the shootout, Layla is killed, so Yasmin decides to infiltrate Charlie's mansion masquerading as Layla. Charlie asks of one last favor of Mark, and has him hit the Yardies again so he can steal their drug money. Mark complies, and decides to meet with Jake and two of Charlie's Mauve Shirt mooks Eyebrows and Sparky. When they meet, Hammond was supposed to split the cash with Jake, then take the other half and head out of town with Alex.
Unsurprisingly, Charlie doesn't hold up his end of the deal and had instructed his men to kill Hammond and steal the money. Hammond manages to escape the trap, shooting through several Bethnal Green mobsters and killing Sparky in the process. Just as Hammond is about to kill Jake, he's captured again and taken back to Charlie's warehouse, along with Yasmin. It's here where we find out about Charlie grand master plan: he blackmailed Mark into doing jobs all around town, turning all the city's gangs against each other. After gloating about his evil schemes, he calls all of the gangs' bosses and tells them that he'll hand Mark over to them aboard the Sol Vita cargo ship. Then he leaves and prepares to head for the meet. However, after Carter rescues Mark and Yasmin, it's later revealed that Charlie doesn't want peace at all. He's instructed his nephew to plant a bomb on the ship so when all the gang leaders meet up, they can detonate the explosive, thus eliminating all of Charlie's competition.
Charlie's plan backfires horribly; Carter follows Jake to the ship and shoots through all his soldiers, and kills Jake Jolson as well. When Yasmin and Hammond reach the ship (after failing to rescue Alex), they find the ship crawling with all of the other gangs' mobsters, who are all shooting at each other. Hammond goes down into the ship, shoots through the last group of Bethnal Gang mobsters, kills Harry, and finds Alex, Yasmin, and Carter. Before any of them can escape, they're cornered by the leader of the Collins gang, who's captured Charlie Jolson when he tried to sneak off the boat. The Triad and Yardie bosses show up as well, ready to kill Hammond. The bosses all decide to give Hammond a chance to explain himself, and Charlie's plan is exposed. All of the gang bosses are so disgusted by Charlie that they let Hammond and Yasmin go, along with Alex. As they leave the ship, Charlie, seeing no other card to play, decides to go out in a blaze of glory. He activates the Time Bomb, intending to take all the crime bosses to hell with him. With the exception of Jamahl (the leader of the Yardies) and Frank Carter, everyone on the ship perishes.
Not really. He claims he's a "noble Englishman" and that all the other gangs are ruining society (or at least society in the criminal underworld). But all the other gangs see through him: he's just an old man who grew intolerant of the way the world was changing, so he tried to eliminate the competition for his own benefit.
Redeeming qualities?
Somewhat(?) He never claims that he loves his nephew or that he cares about him. However, he does have some sort of friendly relationship with him; he says he's family and that he "has a good heart." He cares about Jake to some degree at least. Also, after Sparky is killed, he says "God rest his soul" while talking to his mobsters about the bomb aboard the Sol Vita. So it is possible that he cares about his mobsters too. But here's where the dividing moment comes in. When Charlie sets off the bomb, he doesn't care who else is onboard. At this time, we don't know if Charlie is aware that his nephew Jake and Dragon Harry have already been killed. But as I replayed this mission, I noticed there were still a few other Bethnal Green mobsters who were onboard, one of whom said that Charlie's gone mad. So it's possible that Charlie doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself, and he was perfectly fine letting his own soldiers die along with him.
Is He Heinous By The Series Standards?
Absolutely. Viktor Skobel from the sequel is a nasty piece of work too, as he is responsible for a massacre at a gym (which includes the death of a young kid, but mostly mobsters), and he's another massive gangster just like Charlie. But unlike Charlie, Viktor spent most of the game running away after Eddie O'Connor started ruining his business. Charlie is the one who orchestrated just about everything in this game. Everything leads back to either him or Mc Cormack. Mark Hammond kills lots and lots and lots of people, but he only did it for his son's safety. He used to be a criminal, and he even went to prison. But at the start of the game, Hammond states that he runs a nightclub and that he's not in the gang life anymore. Yasmin is an assassin, but she had no idea about Charlie's plan. In fact, when Harry kills Mark's wife, she immediately calls him an amateur (apparently no one was supposed to be killed at all, but Charlie didn't seem to care about the small hiccup in their plan since it worked out in his favor anyway).
All of Charlie's mooks are pretty heinous do, but everything they do is on either Charlie or Mc Cormack's orders. None of the other gangs have any members in them that particularly stand out. And even when they all had the opportunity to execute Mark, his kid, and Yasmin, they all agreed to let him live so long as he got out of town. Now for the second game....that I'm a bit hazy on, because I haven't played that in a while. I will say though, that the sequel's Anti-Hero is not as sympathetic as Mark is. Eddie O'Connor is only out for personal revenge, nothing else. He kills just about everyone in his way simply because they're in his way. And unlike Mark, Eddie is a criminal who messed with the wrong gang. He does have sympathetic qualities, such as having a few friends, even though he's not the best of friends with Sam. The other player character, Ben Mitchell, is basically Frank Carter, but quieter. So when it comes to the sequel, I don't think anyone qualifies—even Viktor Skobel—because Eddie and his gang brought what happened to them on themselves, and Eddie is responsible for quite a few deaths (again, mostly gang members, but you have to shoot some cops here and there). Mark on the other hand did nothing wrong, and his life ended up going in the toilet.
Mc Cormak is pretty sleazy, and he ordered one of Charlie's mooks to storm a hospital and murder Carter's partner, but I have no idea if Charlie told Mc Cormack to do this, or if Mc Cormack was ordering some of Charlie's troops around on his own time.
Final Verdict?
Like I said, I'm not entirely sure. He has a somewhat Villainous Friendship with his nephew, and he doesn't treat his mooks too horribly to be honest. But as they say, actions speak louder than words. And Charlie's final act was to blow up an entire ship filled with people, some of which were his own soldiers. Over the course of Charlie's actions, hundreds of people are killed in a single day. And while a majority of these deaths were all criminals or people who probably had it coming, at least a dozen police officers and Mark's innocent wife were caught in the crossfire, and there's a chance that a countless amount of other innocents were killed as well off-screen.
What do you guys think? Keep or scratch?
edited 5th Jan '16 11:05:52 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.From League of Legends:
- Complete Monster: Most of the lore in League averts this, giving some of the most brutal and violent champions something that humanizes them, making them relatable or even sympathetic. Some champions have this, but others... don't. Particularly prevalent in the 2015 lore rewrite of several Shadow Isles champions.
- Hecarim's lore turned him into this when he was still human. A mounted knight belonging to a prestigious Order, his prodigious skill and strength as a knight bellied a growing darkness within him. When this darkness was noticed by his Commander, he was told he would not become the successor of his Commander. He responded later on by leaving his Commander to die when surrounded by enemy forces, then taking command of the Order anyways. Afterwards he-who-would-become-Hecarim offered the services of he and his Order to their despairing king as the king's General Kalista sought out a cure for the king's ailing wife. As despair turned to rage and paranoia, he-who-would-become-Hecarim and his Order carried out the maddening king's orders to enforce a bloody, iron-fisted rule; all in the name of glory. When Kalista returned too late with what the king desperately sought, and was jailed as a traitor for refusing to share it, he-who-would-become-Hecarim saw another opportunity for glory and approached Kalista, convincing her to lead them to what she had found; the Blessed Isles. When the king was denied the opportunity to revive his wife, Hecarim was happy to Back Stab (literally) Kalista and kill all opposition on the king's orders. A Glory Hound, Blood Knight, and Manipulative Bastard, human!Hecarim is almost single-handedly responsible for the creation of The Shadow Isles and everything that came after. Hecarim as he is now is almost an improvement over his human self.
- Mordekaiser was in life, a brutal warlord who ruled Eastern Valoran with an iron fist. Hated and feared across the continent, when his enemies finally united against him, Mordekaiser went out laughing and promising he'd come back for them. When he was resurrected by a group of sorcerers, he repaid them by forcefully turning them all into undead liches bound to his will until the end of time. This would become his signature power, where he would brutalize his foes before enslaving their souls, forcing them to slaughter their own kin against their wills. We are treated to such an act when he attacks a Demacian garrison, strangling one of the knights guarding it to death before turning him on his fellow warriors. Upon his return, the Iron Revenant would then spend a decade tracking down and killing everyone that stood against him in the past. Once he had his revenge, he resumed his campaign of carnage, never dying each time he's seemingly slain. Once it seems he's finally killed for good, he returns centuries later in the Shadow Isles, enslaving an army of undead to prepare for the slaughter he adores so much, seemingly targeting Noxus first. Unlike Thresh, who went mad from the corruption of the ancient artifacts he was guarding, and Karthus, who is a well-meaning lich at best, Mordekaiser was always this bad, and just wants to burn the world to the ground because it's not his to rule.
edited 5th Jan '16 10:38:48 AM by ACW
Question about Fuhito: Someone please give me context for this quote, because it sure doesn't seem like something a CM would say:
That totally is something a CM would say if the CM is a Knight Templar with a twisted view of what constitutes "saving the planet" or "saving humanity" (remember Dewey Novak?). And in Fuhito's case, he's saying that to show his loyalty to the cause of AVALANCHE but his actions and the depiction of his character shows how this rings hollow - he's really in this For Science! just as much as Hojo is for Shinra.
@A New Man: Hmm....I dunno. That quote seems kinda ambiguous; it could go either way.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.I'll abstain on Charlie. If he never does anything to invalidate his friendship with his nephew, then he's a no.
I doubt that the original Blofeld will qualify, but if Lighty's gonna propose him, more power to Lighty. Would the proposal include "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" (ACW only said "Connery-era Blofeld")?
As far as Fuhito's quote goes, it all depends on whether he's being sincere or not. Even if he isn't actively lying, he may just be delusional. If it's clear-headed, sincere, and there's evidence to prove he's serious, then it might be enough to disqualify him.
edited 5th Jan '16 12:55:06 PM by DeCarta

edited 4th Jan '16 7:31:54 PM by toonyloon