During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Someone added this example to the X-Force YMMV page, seems badly written to me.
"Blob-295, a disgusting slob whose favorite food is live humans."
I'm going to leave it there for now in case anyone else decides, but I honestly don't see how Blob qualifies compared to 616-Sabretooth in that series.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Ugh. BTW, should that action be added to his entry?
Lighty, should I submit those other 2 Fairy Tail ones?
on Adam. Also someone told me that the new movie American Sniper has a character called The Butcher that might count. Based on what I heard about him (I am going to see a movie this weekend) I think he counts. Any thoughts?
I know that I have already brought this up before, and I accept that some of you guys never saw Dan Vs. But for those who HAVE actually watched that series, are there any good Complete Monster candidates from there?
edited 20th Jan '15 7:08:04 PM by Fangusu
Changing my previous lean to
on Adam to a
.
After last nights episode of The Originals, I might have my final answer to bring up Mikael - in that episode, he shares a Villainous Team Up with his son Finn, and they seem to get along, and it's confirmed that Mikael's first daughter Freya is going to show up, so time will tell if he still loves her.
Quick question, can an initially sympathetic villain become a CM if something like fear and/or hatred consumes them and they go off the deep end. I found a movie, and by my research, the villain fits that description, but I'll have to watch the movie first.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Having watched Dan Vs, no, there aren't any candidates, especially considering the fact the protagonist is an unsympathetic cad himself.
Why isn't the Loc-Nar from Heavy Metal considered a Complete Monster?
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Since it's literally Made of Evil, it can't be said to exercise moral choices.
The only time Made of Evil is not a disqualifier, is when other beings in the work that are Made of Evil are shown to be capable of change (very rare).
jjj@Scraggle - How much of VP is Dan ?
Also just watched Maleficent and have an example of Adaptional Villainy in King Stefan. He starts out pretty decent but goes off the deep end during the second half. So I'm thinking of bringing up if he qualifies as a CM or just a sociopath.
Who is Stefan ? What Does He Do ?
If you watched Sleeping Beauty, you'll see Stefan as a bumbling but loving father to the princess Aurora and plays a part as comic relief. In Maleficent however, he is anything but.
When we first see Stefan, he's a young orphan boy, poor, and resorted to being a thief. He is from a human kingdom that neighbors the moors, which is inhabited by the fae. Stefan comes to the moors and steals a gem from the river, only to be confronted by a young Maleficent, who he befriends. They depart in their teen years, where Stefan became ambitious and worked as a servant for King Henry. After a battle between Henry's men and the army of the moors, Henry declares that whoever kills Maleficent for attacking him, will be made his successor. Stefan returns to the woods and reunites with Maleficent under the pretense of warning her of Henry's orders, but gives her a drink which puts her asleep. Stefan couldn't bring himself to kill Maleficent, so he settled for cutting of her wings. Using the wings as proof he killed her, is made king and marries Henry's daughter.
This is still before he Jumps of the Slippery Slope though - but it instigated Maleficent's own Start of Darkness. When princess Aurora is born, and Maleficent puts the famous curse on her, Stefan assigns three pixies to raise her in the woods. Overtime, Stefan became more paranoid of Maleficent, and his hatred of her consumed him. He spent years awaiting for Maleficent's return, preparing a trap for her - he was so distracted, he couldn't be bothered to pay his ill wife any attention on her death bed because he was having a "conversation" with Maleficent's wings. Stefan would also send his men to attack Maleficent's kingdom, and due battle with her sentient wall of thrones, which they try to burn - and is careless over the casualties and survivors. During this time, Aurora befriends Maleficent and her raven Divial who end up practically raising Aurora on account of the pixies incompetence. When Aurora finally returns to Stefan's castle, he couldn't be bothered to show any affection to her - simply having her locked in her room, and is more concerned that she shown up a day early, and his plans to get revenge on Maleficent. When Maleficent arrives at the castle to save Aurora from her curse, Stefan sets his trap in motion, having her caught in an iron net and takes his sweet time trying to torture her. Aurora releases Maleficent's wings which heal back on her, and Maleficent briefly fights Stefan before releasing him on a tower, telling him its over - Stefan lunges at her with a knife and ends up falling to his death.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
Questionable. We see Stefan when he was a child, and he seemed innocent enough when he befriend Maleficent, and gain eachothers mutual sympathy when they briefly talk about their dead parents. Even when Stefan began to turn evil, he couldn't bring himself to kill Maleficent, so he settled for her wings. When Aurora was born he seemed to love her and his wife, but during her time away, Stefan's hatred for Maleficent consumed him to the point that he didn't care for his dying wife. I think the interpretation was that his hatred was born from initial regret of his betrayal, and constant fear of her retaliation - but whatever regret he has doesn't push him to atone, only pushes him further down the darkside. Again he seemed to love Aurora when she was a baby, but when he was cold and distant to her when they reunited - she pulls him into a hug and he awkwardly steps away from her and is angry that she came back a day early. When Aurora falls into her deathlike sleep, he belittles the pixies for their incompetence of raising her, which makes me wonder if he sees her as a possession. He doesn't care for his own men, as following their battle with the sentient burning thorns, he belittles them for their failure and smacks their leader for pointing out that the thorns where indestructible.
Conclusion
I think he had redeeming qualities but lost them. Even if he does love his wife and Aurora as more than posessions, he hated Maleficent more to the point he didn't care for them anymore.
Your thoughts ?
edited 21st Jan '15 6:16:18 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Sorry but I vote
on Stefan. I would say he is way too paranoid and he hardly can even be considered evil. I mean yeah, he maybe loses his redeeming qualities in the end, but his whole hatred for Maleficent stems from them and he doesn't even go out his way to be cruel to everyone, he just wants to kill Maleficent whom the movie presents is The Hero.
Yeah, personally I don't know where to lean on him - he goes through more villainy in the novelisation though - in it he was manipulating Maleficent from the start, and he kills King Henry when he is refused the crown. During the climax of the novelisation he states his one regret was not killing Maleficent when he had the chance.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Than that makes him a villain but not automatically a Complete Monster. He could possibly count in the novelization but I need to hear more.
edited 21st Jan '15 6:42:34 AM by holders
I never read the novelisation, but I did look it up (plus I doubt novelisations of movies can have C Ms). My understanding is that they where made up from deleted scenes, but I'm yet to see the deleted scenes.
- In the novelisation when he first meets Maleficent, as children, he was stealing gems from the Moors, and when Maleficent has him put it back, he lies to her, hiding another in his pocket.
- After his betrayal of Maleficent, and he presents her wings to King Henry, Henry mocks Stefan for thinking he had a chance when no one knows his name - Stefan suffocates the king with a pillow saying "They call me Stefan!" and challenges the nobles in the room to deny him the crown when they all heard Henry promise it to whoever kills Maleficent.
Really what stands out in the movie proper, outside of his treatment to Maleficent, is his carelessness to his men, and ignoring the request to see his dying wife while plotting revenge, and cold distance to his daughter. It makes him a sociopath yes, I just want to know how it meets the baseline - but the novelisation seems to state that Movie!Stefan could've been worse.
Not sure if it helps the case, but accoreding to Word of God statements (which I know is irrelevant), Stefan's maiming of Maleficent was a rape metaphor.
edited 21st Jan '15 7:37:06 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Okay, absolute
to Stefan. In the novelization, he is a sociopath but not quite a Complete Monster. And remember that what is in the deleted scenes doesn't count as we have qualified villains who had redeeming qualities in the redeeming scenes. King Stefan is certainly a villain by the end, but I don't think he really crosses the line, his Freudian Excuse is still valid, and I actually could imagine him being redeemed by the end.
And yes, novelizations can have C Ms, we have qualified Moff Jerjerrod from the Return Of The Jedi novelization.
edited 21st Jan '15 8:04:49 AM by holders

Mard Geer is a maybe. I can see an argument for him counting, but he may have a redeeming quality in his loyalty